Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Ethan
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England

Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:43 am

Isaiah 9:6 is written in Past-Tense, so the child was already born.

Isa 9:6
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν
That Child Was born to us
כי־ילד ילד־לנו

בן נתן־לנו ( A Son as being given too us)
*ἐδόθη (Past Tense)
* the Hebrew לנו indicates past-tense

ותהי - καὶ ἐγένετο "And it came too pass"
ה משרה "from the might' / from the beginning
על־שכמו "Upon his shoulder"

Act 7:20 ( Moses was already born )
ἐν ᾧ καιρῷ ἐγεννήθη Μωσῆς
In that time Was born Moses

Isaiah 5:13 - Past Tense
-ἐγενήθη "became"
" Our people have gone into captivity"

Isa 9:14 כרת /ἀφεῖλεν (Past tense) 1Sa 24:5 - he had cut off
Therefore the Lord has(already) cut off

This is what happens when prophetic Christians translate the Old Testament.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
paypal.me/Napples

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 5645
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:04 am

Ethan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:43 am
בן נתן־לנו ( A Son as being given too us)
*ἐδόθη (Past Tense)
* the Hebrew לנו indicates past-tense
The Hebrew לנו has nothing to do with the "past tense" (which, if it even exists in Hebrew, ought to be called the perfect tense/aspect); it is a prepositional prefix + a pronominal suffix. It means "to us" or the like.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

Ethan
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:46 am

לָנוּ would be the third-person plural past of לָן‎

ילד־לנו : ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν "was Born to us"
נתן־לנו : ἐδόθη ἡμῖν "was given to us"

Ecclesiastes 4:14
יצא ל מלך / ἐξελεύσεται τοῦ βασιλεῦσαι "Came forth too reign"
נולד רש / ἐγεννήθη πένης "Was born a pauper"

Isaiah 11:1
ויצא חטר מגזע ישי / καὶ ἐξελεύσεται ῥάβδος ἐκ τῆς ῥίζης Ιεσσαι
"And came out a rod from the root of Jesse and the flower
from the root shall go up.

Ecclesiastes 1:1
The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

This seems to hint that the child that was born in Isaiah 9:6 is the author of Ecclesiastes
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
paypal.me/Napples

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 5645
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:56 am

Ethan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:46 am
לָנוּ would be the third-person plural past of לָן‎
What are you talking about?? This is nonsense:

La-Nu.png
La-Nu.png (24.25 KiB) Viewed 2725 times

The verb is יֻלַּד (yulad), not לָ֗נוּ, which is (as I said before) a prepositional prefix + a pronominal suffix.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

Ethan
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:18 pm

The authors of the New Testament must be aware that Moses lived in the past.

Act 7:20 - ἐγεννήθη Μωσῆς - "Moses was born"
Isaiah 9:6 - ἐγεννήθη "Was born"

Act 7:20 "Moses will be born" * is this correct?
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
paypal.me/Napples

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 5645
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:29 pm

Ethan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:18 pm
The authors of the New Testament must be aware that Moses lived in the past.

Act 7:20 - ἐγεννήθη Μωσῆς - "Moses was born"
Isaiah 9:6 - ἐγεννήθη "Was born"

Act 7:20 "Moses will be born" * is this correct?
Not sure what this has to do with what I said, or even whether it is directed at me, but yes, Moses was born in the past, as the Greek verb tenses (both in the OG and in the NT) indicate.

I am not talking about your interpretation of Isaiah 9.6. I am talking about the fact that you are making up the grammar as you go along for some reason. You are claiming that לָ֗נוּ is a verb in the past (perfect) tense, but לָ֗נוּ is not even a verb at all. I am calling you out on this horrific mangling of the Hebrew language.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 9644
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:33 pm

Hee hee hee
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ethan
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:41 pm

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/לנו

Preposition - Form of ל־‎ (l-) including first-person plural personal pronoun as object
Verb - third-person plural past of לָן‎ (lan)

Judges 13:23 - ותאמר לו אשתו לו
לו * ἐθέλω, θέλω

Numbers 14:2 - וילנו על־משה -καὶ διεγόγγυζον ἐπὶ Μωυσῆν
- And murmured upon Moses ( past tense)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
paypal.me/Napples

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 5645
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:51 pm

Ethan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:41 pm
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/לנו

Preposition - Form of ל־‎ (l-) including first-person plural personal pronoun as object
Verb - third-person plural past of לָן‎ (lan)
Yes, that is what I have been saying! It is a prepositional prefix + a pronominal suffix.

The identically spelled verb is not present in Isaiah 9.6.
Judges 13:23 - ותאמר לו אשתו לו
לו * ἐθέλω, θέλω

Numbers 14:2 - וילנו על־משה -καὶ διεγόγγυζον ἐπὶ Μωυσῆν
- And murmured upon Moses ( past tense)
These are different words. They are irrelevant.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

Ethan
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England

Re: Isaiah 9:6 - Past Tense

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:22 pm

Gen 41:13 - ויהי כאשר פתר־לנו (and came too pass)
ἐγενήθη δὲ καθὼς συνέκρινεν ἡμῖν

ילד־לנו : ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν "was Born to us"
נתן־לנו : ἐδόθη ἡμῖν "was given to us"

* context always in the past

לו , לנו are cognates

Remove the Initial L you produce , נו(Nu) "place, resting place, habitation, abode"
then נו is cognate with νομός/νέμω "Place, habitation" and νῷ (duel-pronoun)
thus λεῶν "Men/The people" = לנ

ילד = βλαστός "Shoot, sprout, scion "
* ילד־לנו "A shoot was born for the people"
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
paypal.me/Napples

Post Reply