Gen 34:28

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Ethan
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Gen 34:28

Post by Ethan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:53 am

They are around 25 words in this verse, includes prefix and suffixes
and i have translated the versev using Nine words, the KJV as 24 words.

Gen 34:28 - Poetic
They took sheep, oxen, donkeys from towns and fields.

Gen 34:28- KJV
They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field.

"and that which was in the" > "from"

KJV is mostly bloat
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Ethan
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by Ethan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:20 am

ויקחו צאנם ובקרם חמריהם מעיר ומשדה - Shortened

את־צאנם ואת־בקרם ואת־חמריהם ואת אשר־בעיר ואת־אשר בשדה לקחו - Masoretic
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semiopen
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by semiopen » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:58 am

Originally, I wanted to correct what I thought was a mistake about the Masoretic_Text, but now I'm a little confused. Anyway, I thought this is worth commenting on and perhaps a more knowledgeable person can provide better insight.

Here is the verse in question with the Leningrad_Codex

‎אֶת־צֹאנָ֥ם וְאֶת־בְּקָרָ֖ם וְאֶת־חֲמֹרֵיהֶּ֑ם וְאֵ֧ת אֲשֶׁר־בָּעִ֛יר וְאֶת־אֲשֶׁ֥ר בַּשָּׂדֶ֖ה לָקָֽחוּ׃

(Gen. 34:28 WTT)
The Leningrad Codex (Latin: Codex Leningradensis, the "codex of Leningrad") is the oldest complete manuscript of the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew, using the Masoretic Text and Tiberian vocalization.[1] It is dated 1008 CE (or possibly 1009) according to its colophon.[2] The Aleppo Codex, against which the Leningrad Codex was corrected, is several decades older, but parts of it have been missing since 1947, making the Leningrad Codex the oldest complete codex of the Tiberian mesorah that has survived intact to this day.
Tiberian_vocalization
The Tiberian vocalization, Tiberian pointing, or Tiberian niqqud (Hebrew: נִיקוּד טְבֵרִיָנִי‬ Nikkud Tveriyani) is a system of diacritics (niqqud) devised by the Masoretes of Tiberias to add to the consonantal text of the Hebrew Bible to produce the Masoretic Text.[1] The system soon became used to vocalize other Hebrew texts as well.

The Tiberian vocalization marks vowels and stress, makes fine distinctions of consonant quality and length, and serves as punctuation. While the Tiberian system was devised for Tiberian Hebrew, it has become the dominant system for vocalizing all forms of Hebrew; it has long since eclipsed the Babylonian and Palestinian vocalization systems.
The Hebrew text Ethan gives in his second post is missing the Tiberian vocalization marks. so my impression is that this is not masoretic.

Personally, I have very limited ability to understand Hebrew without these marks (not that I understand it all that well with the marks).

The following might be a matter of taste but for English translations, I compare the 1917 and 1985 JPS editions.
They took their flocks and their herds and their asses, and that which was in the city and that which was in the field; (Gen. 34:28 JPS)
They seized their flocks and herds and asses, all that was inside the town and outside; (Gen. 34:28 TNK)

Ethan
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by Ethan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:23 pm

ויקחו צאנם ובקרם וחמריהם מעיר ומשדה - Poetic
את־צאנם ואת־בקרם ואת־חמריהם ואת אשר־בעיר ואת־אשר בשדה לקחו - Masoretic


There is no diacritics in Ancient Hebrew, I am learning the language without them.
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semiopen
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by semiopen » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:40 pm

You evidently misspelled Hebrew. H-E-B-R-E-W, not M-A-S-O-R-E-T-I-C

Maybe you can learn it that way, I can't think of a Hebrew learning system that doesn't use vowels.

Your way sounds much more macho.

Ethan
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by Ethan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:05 pm

צאנ

This word in Greek is κτῆνος, ος is an ending.
κτην > κτ-η-ν > צ-א-נ "ktín".
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Ethan
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by Ethan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:23 pm

לקח
λαγχάνω > λ-γ-χ > ל-ק-ח "lagch"

Greek fills in the vowels.
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nili
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by nili » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:24 am

Everett Fox suggests:
Their sheep, their oxen, their donkeys -- whatever was inside the city and out in the field, they took ...
Similarly. Robert Alter renders the verse as ...
Their sheep and their cattle and their donkeys, what was in the town and in the field, they took ...

Ethan
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Re: Gen 34:28

Post by Ethan » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:41 am

צאנ means Cattle, the colloquial word for Sheep and Goats.

In Gen 34:28, צאן "Shepherds" Poimenes.
- צאנם in this verse is rendered ktḗnē (κτήνη) , confirming the cognate.

The Strong's Lexicon gives 'From an unused root meaning to migrate' for צאן .

The word 'Sheep' is an unusual word because it's both Plural and Singular , When referring
too them as Sheep , the word is כבש (KBS) and cognates with Latin, 'Ovis or Gk οϝις.
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