Mycenaean Hebrew

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
semiopen
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by semiopen » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:28 am

Ethan wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:34 am
ה מסות ה גדלת
τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους

Can anyone explain the double articles present in both Greek and Hebrew?
Regarding Hebrew, I think the trick is to learn the language, but maybe this will help. - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%94%D6%BE


Your verse
the great trials which thine eyes saw, the signs and those great wonders; (Deut. 29:3 JPS)
the wondrous feats that you saw with your own eyes, those prodigious signs and marvels. (Deut. 29:2 TNK)
הַמַּסּוֹת֙ הַגְּדֹלֹ֔ת אֲשֶׁ֥ר רָא֖וּ עֵינֶ֑יךָ הָאֹתֹ֧ת וְהַמֹּפְתִ֛ים הַגְּדֹלִ֖ים הָהֵֽם׃
(Deut. 29:2 WTT)

The last four words -

הָאֹתֹ֧ת - the sign(s)

‎וְהַמֹּפְתִ֛ים - and the wonders

‎הַגְּדֹלִ֖ים - the great (plural)

הָהֵֽם - the them/those

the initial vav (and) in "and the wonders" separates the last phrase from "the signs". Note how the 1917 JPS -

... the signs and those great wonders

is quite literal while the 1985 edition goes -

... those prodigious signs and marvels

where the last word (the them/those) now also applies to "the signs".

Similarly the noun and adjective combination which starts the sentence is tied together by the definite article appearing in both words.

Probably it's mostly a matter of taste, but it's best to closely look at two good translations in one's native language.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:28 am

Ethan wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:34 am
ה מסות ה גדלת
τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους

Can anyone explain the double articles present in both Greek and Hebrew?
You asked this same question before, and I answered that the adjective is in the attributive position; both in Hebrew and in Greek (and in other languages, including apparently Yiddish and some kinds of Romani) the adjective takes the article again when it comes after the noun in attributive position.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

Ethan
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:28 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:28 am
the adjective takes the article again when it comes after the noun in attributive position.
In Greek and Hebrew
Deuteronomy 29:3
The great the temptations
ה מסות ה גדלת
τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους

Deuteronomy 29:33
Hebrew - המסות הגדלת (Double article)
Greek - τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους ( double article)
Spanish - las grandes pruebas (single article)
Latin - temptationes magnas (no articles)

2 Kings 18:19
Hebrew - המלך הגדול (double article)
Greek - ὁ βασιλεὺς ὁ μέγας (double article)
Spanish - el gran rey (single article)
Latin - rex magnus (no article)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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Ethan
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:55 am

ה גל הזה : ὁ κολωνός ὅδε (Gen 31:48)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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lpetrich
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:16 pm

I will now compare Hebrew and Greek adjective inflection. Both of them closely parallel noun inflection, and they have a lot of variations. Listed by noun case, here is a summary:

Hebrew:
Genders: masculine, feminine
  • m sg, f sg, ... m pl, f pl
  • Absolute ... - -ah ... -im -ot
  • Construct ... - -at ... -ei -ot
The construct case of a noun means "<noun> of". Hebrew shares this feature with other Semitic languages, but it is rare outside of them. Otherwise, a noun goes into the absolute case.

Greek (Attic dialect):
Genders: masculine, feminine, neuter
  • m sg, f sg, n sg ... m pl, f pl, n pl
  • Nominative ... -os -ê -on ... -oi -ai -a
  • Accusative ... -on -ên -on ... -ous -as -a
  • Genitive ... -ou -ês -ou ... -ôn -ôn -ôn
  • Dative ... -ôi -êi -ôi ... -ois -ais -ois
Greek also has a vocative case, but it is usually identical to the nominative case.

Nominative: subject, is-something case.
Accusative: direct object, with prepositions the goal of an action ("into" something)
Genitive: of-case
Dative: indirect object, to-case, with prepositions the location of an action("in" something)

Greek shares its cases and its preposition-case combinations with several other Indo-European languages.

Ethan
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:24 pm

-וֹן/ων-
Hebron חֶבְר-וֹן : Χεβρων
Lebanon לְבָנ-וֹן : λιβάνων
Aaron אַהֲר-וֹן : Ἀαρών
Pison פִּישׁ-וֹן : Φισων
Gihon גִּיח-וֹן : Γηων
Ephron עֶפְר-וֹן : Εφρων
Ekron עֶקְר-וֹן : Ακκαρων
Ashkelon אַשְׁקְל-וֹן : Ἀσκαλὼν
Gibeon גִּבְע- וֹן : Γαβαων
Sharon שר-ון : Συρίων
Sidon צִיד-וֹן : Σιδῶν
Shomron שֹׁמְר-וֹן : Σαεμηρων
Zion צִיּ-וֹן : Σιων
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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