Mycenaean Hebrew

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semiopen
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by semiopen » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:28 am

Ethan wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:34 am
ה מסות ה גדלת
τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους

Can anyone explain the double articles present in both Greek and Hebrew?
Regarding Hebrew, I think the trick is to learn the language, but maybe this will help. - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%94%D6%BE


Your verse
the great trials which thine eyes saw, the signs and those great wonders; (Deut. 29:3 JPS)
the wondrous feats that you saw with your own eyes, those prodigious signs and marvels. (Deut. 29:2 TNK)
הַמַּסּוֹת֙ הַגְּדֹלֹ֔ת אֲשֶׁ֥ר רָא֖וּ עֵינֶ֑יךָ הָאֹתֹ֧ת וְהַמֹּפְתִ֛ים הַגְּדֹלִ֖ים הָהֵֽם׃
(Deut. 29:2 WTT)

The last four words -

הָאֹתֹ֧ת - the sign(s)

‎וְהַמֹּפְתִ֛ים - and the wonders

‎הַגְּדֹלִ֖ים - the great (plural)

הָהֵֽם - the them/those

the initial vav (and) in "and the wonders" separates the last phrase from "the signs". Note how the 1917 JPS -

... the signs and those great wonders

is quite literal while the 1985 edition goes -

... those prodigious signs and marvels

where the last word (the them/those) now also applies to "the signs".

Similarly the noun and adjective combination which starts the sentence is tied together by the definite article appearing in both words.

Probably it's mostly a matter of taste, but it's best to closely look at two good translations in one's native language.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:28 am

Ethan wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:34 am
ה מסות ה גדלת
τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους

Can anyone explain the double articles present in both Greek and Hebrew?
You asked this same question before, and I answered that the adjective is in the attributive position; both in Hebrew and in Greek (and in other languages, including apparently Yiddish and some kinds of Romani) the adjective takes the article again when it comes after the noun in attributive position.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

Ethan
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:28 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:28 am
the adjective takes the article again when it comes after the noun in attributive position.
In Greek and Hebrew
Deuteronomy 29:3
The great the temptations
ה מסות ה גדלת
τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους

Deuteronomy 29:33
Hebrew - המסות הגדלת (Double article)
Greek - τοὺς πειρασμοὺς τοὺς μεγάλους ( double article)
Spanish - las grandes pruebas (single article)
Latin - temptationes magnas (no articles)

2 Kings 18:19
Hebrew - המלך הגדול (double article)
Greek - ὁ βασιλεὺς ὁ μέγας (double article)
Spanish - el gran rey (single article)
Latin - rex magnus (no article)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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Ethan
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:55 am

ה גל הזה : ὁ κολωνός ὅδε (Gen 31:48)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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lpetrich
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:16 pm

I will now compare Hebrew and Greek adjective inflection. Both of them closely parallel noun inflection, and they have a lot of variations. Listed by noun case, here is a summary:

Hebrew:
Genders: masculine, feminine
  • m sg, f sg, ... m pl, f pl
  • Absolute ... - -ah ... -im -ot
  • Construct ... - -at ... -ei -ot
The construct case of a noun means "<noun> of". Hebrew shares this feature with other Semitic languages, but it is rare outside of them. Otherwise, a noun goes into the absolute case.

Greek (Attic dialect):
Genders: masculine, feminine, neuter
  • m sg, f sg, n sg ... m pl, f pl, n pl
  • Nominative ... -os -ê -on ... -oi -ai -a
  • Accusative ... -on -ên -on ... -ous -as -a
  • Genitive ... -ou -ês -ou ... -ôn -ôn -ôn
  • Dative ... -ôi -êi -ôi ... -ois -ais -ois
Greek also has a vocative case, but it is usually identical to the nominative case.

Nominative: subject, is-something case.
Accusative: direct object, with prepositions the goal of an action ("into" something)
Genitive: of-case
Dative: indirect object, to-case, with prepositions the location of an action("in" something)

Greek shares its cases and its preposition-case combinations with several other Indo-European languages.

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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:24 pm

-וֹן/ων-
Hebron חֶבְר-וֹן : Χεβρων
Lebanon לְבָנ-וֹן : λιβάνων
Aaron אַהֲר-וֹן : Ἀαρών
Pison פִּישׁ-וֹן : Φισων
Gihon גִּיח-וֹן : Γηων
Ephron עֶפְר-וֹן : Εφρων
Ekron עֶקְר-וֹן : Ακκαρων
Ashkelon אַשְׁקְל-וֹן : Ἀσκαλὼν
Gibeon גִּבְע- וֹן : Γαβαων
Sharon שר-ון : Συρίων
Sidon צִיד-וֹן : Σιδῶν
Shomron שֹׁמְר-וֹן : Σαεμηρων
Zion צִיּ-וֹן : Σιων
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:51 am

בעלה πόση `a husband, spouse, mate'

These words are semantically identical but phonetically, slightly different, σ/ל and πόσις exist in Hebrew as בשת that interchanges with בעל e.g. איש בעל = איש בשת.

The word πόση seems to be the prefix of Ποσειδῶν (Poseidon ) and if that the case and πόση is בעלה, then Ποσειδῶν would align with בעלהים
that means "Lord of Water".

Πόσειδον
בόלειδον
בόלειδοם
בόלεיοם
בעלהים

IN Mycenaean, the deity as the title 'wa-na-ka' which is מלך (Ma-la-ka) and note that the archaic form 'wanaka' exists in Hebrew as אנא & אנה and Greek as ἄνα & ὦνα as a poetic address to god.

בעלהים מלך _ Poseidon-Wanax

He also as the title, E-ne-si-da-o-ne 'Earth Shaker' that is הגעש אדמה.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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Ethan
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:01 am

PEOPLE
לאמ : λεῶν
לוֹן : λαόν * Land
נו : ῷν , νομός , νέμω
כי - ὅτι "That"
כה - οὕτως "Thus
גם - γοῦν "Well"
אמנה - ἦ μήν , εἶ μάν "verily, truly"
מקץ - μεθ /μετά "after that"
קץ - ἐθ/ἔτ "Yet"
יהי - ἰοί
ל ו - τό ὁ
אם - ἐὰν
לאתו - αὐτῷ
אתו - αὐτὸ
אתה - αὐτὴ

RED
αἵματι φοινόν "Blood Red" ( Lliad 16:159)
αἷμα 'Red'
ϝοινος οἶνος "'Wine'
δέμας 'bodily frame. inflorescence of the grape vine'
δῆμος 'bodily fat, country-district'
דם 'Blood'
אדם 'Red, Man, Edom, Soil' (for the red soil of the Lebanese mountains)
יין 'Wine'
ים 'Sea' ( οἶνοψ πόντος )
קין 'Cain, Kenite'
קינן 'Cainan'
יון 'Javan
קנן 'Nest (of the Phoenix) *Jer 22:23, Num 24:21
שמשון , שמ 'Samson, Shem'
שני 'Scarlet'
תמר 'Palm Tree, Tamar'
יונה 'Jonah, Dove'
חמד 'Red Wine, reddish donkey'
שמר 'Wine

HEAD
קד (Qad) 'Head, bow down'
قبعة (Qabea) 'Hat'
κύπτω, κύψᾶς 'bend one's head
جبين (Jabiyn) 'Forhead
κεφαλή 'Head
Caput
κίδαρις 'Persian headgear
עטרת 'Crown
جبل (Jabal) 'high-place
גבה (Gabah) 'high place
כִּיפָּה‬ (Kippah)
גביעי (gĕbiya) 'bowl
κούπα 'cup
ראש *head, branch of river, wing of an army
κράς 'head, of men or animals, peak, top, wing of an army
κέρας 'Horn of an animal , branch of a river,
κρανίον 'upper part of the head,
Cornu ' branch of a river, horn of animal
Brain

MEASURE
יד (Yad) 'Hand (tool for measuring)
מדד,מד 'Measure
Medida (Spanish)
Medir
Metro
משורה (mĕsuwrah) ''Measure''
Mund, Manus, Mano, Hand
μέτρον, μετρέω
משפט
ישר (yashar)
εὐθύς, εὐθεῖα 'Straight

WALK
ילך (yalak) 'travel
Walk
τρέχω 'run
τροχός 'wheel
דרך (Derek)
הלך
הליכה
רכב 'Chariot
τρέω 'flee
κελευθήτης 'wayfarer'
Train, Tren
Track, Tractor
Recua, Reata, Raza
March, Marcha, Marca
Car, Cargar, Corriente, Curso, Barca, Correr
Huir, Progreso, Traer

PRIEST
μηχανεύς "contriver, artificer"
τέχνη 'art, skill, cunning of hand'
מכנות 'Mekownah
מחשבת
המכבי 'Maccabeus
כהן 'Kohen'
διακονέω 'minister, do service
διάκων 'servant, attendant, official
קסם qecem
רפא (Rapha) Heal
רפואה (rephuah) 'remedy'
תרופה (Theruwphah)
θεραπεία (Therapeia) 'Therapy
רפא עבד
θεράπων 'Servant, Aid
ὀπηδός 'Aide, Attendant, tiller' (Gen 2:15 )
בית עבד = Hospital
עבד : πάις, παιδός, παίδων
ἰατρός (Iatros ) "Heal"
יתרו "Jethro"
רעואל < רפואל < יתרואל < יתרופאל ( Jethro Reuel)
יתרו < ית-ר-פ < יתרפ > Ἀσκ-λ-ηπ > Ἀσκληπιός > Asclepius ( god of medicine )
σωτηρία

SON
υἱόν : בן "Son" (ϝν)
Burr, Sonr (Old Norse)
Pinu (Hattic)
Vntu (Proto Anatolian)
Hunu (Avastan)
Mnos (Carian)
Son (English)
Bar (Aramaic)
Puer (Latin)
Filius (Latin)
Eirou (Phrygia)
Bal- (Proto Turkish)
Per (Thracian)
Walad (Hebrew)
Poulos (Greek)
Blastos (Greek)
i-jo (Linear B)

Copper
χαλκεύς > χακεύς > χκς (נחשת)

Linear B
ka-ke-we "Copper smith"
ka-ko "Copper"

κνηκός, κνακός "Pale, yellow, tawny'

-produce-
Pa-ra-Ku : χρῶμα - קר, עור "Dye"
Ku-ru-so : χρυσός - חרוץ "Gold"
a-ku-ro : ἄργυρος - שקל, חור "Silver"
Re-u-ko : λευκός - לבנ "White"
Ka-na-ko : κνακός - נחוש "Saffron colour"
Ku-ku-ro : κογχυλιάτης - קיקיון , סכ "Shell" ( that produces purple)

עבר 'Beyond'
- Pa-Ra 'preposition,before,beyond (Linear B)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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lpetrich
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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by lpetrich » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:09 pm

A mishmash of words that makes no sense at all. Ethan, a professional historical linguist would laugh at your sort of "research". Yes, laugh and laugh and laugh. Vague similarities are not enough, and one has to be careful about borrowings and sound correspondences and semantics -- one has to acknowledge differences.

Just to name one example, Latin "puer" means "boy", not "son".

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Re: Mycenaean Hebrew

Post by Ethan » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:41 pm

Puer - Boy
Filius - Son

A search for 'boy' in the King James and there is only ONE Result, Joel 3:3, a reading of 'ה ילד'.

Often, words beginning with י succeed an absentee ϝ , seen in the Greek word
for wine, that is οἰνός, but was ϝοἰνός, Latin retains ϝ in 'VIN' yet absent in Hebrew, 'יין

ילד
ΙΛΔ - ϜΙΛΔ - ϜΙΛΙΥΔ - ϜΙΛΙΥΣ - FILIUS

βλαστός - offspring (poetic)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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