The origin of the synagogue
The origin of the synagogue
The origin of the synagogue is shrouded in mystery says one distinguished rabbi.
One view is that the synagogue originated during the exile in Babylon as a spontaneous gathering of despondent faithful: when the sacrificial cult was interrupted, people would have gathered together to pray and so forth.
In support of an exilic origin of the synagogue is Ezekiel 11:16
16. Therefore, say; so said the Lord God: Although I have removed them far off among the nations and although I have scattered them in the lands, I have become for them a minor sanctuary in the lands where they have come
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true
Rashi explains:
A minor sanctuary (mikdash me’at) = Synagogues, which are in a position second to the Temple.
Could the exilic synagogue have performed the same function for the exiled Israelites as the Pauline church is alleged to have done for the earliest People of the Way (Christians)?
One view is that the synagogue originated during the exile in Babylon as a spontaneous gathering of despondent faithful: when the sacrificial cult was interrupted, people would have gathered together to pray and so forth.
In support of an exilic origin of the synagogue is Ezekiel 11:16
16. Therefore, say; so said the Lord God: Although I have removed them far off among the nations and although I have scattered them in the lands, I have become for them a minor sanctuary in the lands where they have come
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true
Rashi explains:
A minor sanctuary (mikdash me’at) = Synagogues, which are in a position second to the Temple.
Could the exilic synagogue have performed the same function for the exiled Israelites as the Pauline church is alleged to have done for the earliest People of the Way (Christians)?
Re: The origin of the synagogue
Jews were exiled again in the 1st and early 2nd C; I often wondered if that diversified their beliefs & practices and caused some exiled-communities to focus on traditions practiced before they were exiled in those latter times.
Re: The origin of the synagogue
Despite my insistent claims that everything on Chabad is a lie, Beowulf continues to quote them.
The Nature and Origins of the 1st-Century Synagogue - http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Run ... ue_1.shtml
Have to admit that I have no knowledge of early synagogues, but the nature of the first temple is highly problematic, and the attempt to project things back seems to be always doomed to failure. My guess is that it is only during the later second temple that the temple fetish became more popular.
At least as far Chabad goes, we are still waiting for something accurate on their vast web site to be mentioned.
The Nature and Origins of the 1st-Century Synagogue - http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Run ... ue_1.shtml
So as Beowulf correctly mentions,In the last 10-20 years, many long-held ideas about the nature and origin of the synagogue, such as the claim that the synagogue originated in the Babylonian exile as a replacement for the lost temple cult, have been rejected by synagogue scholars, not least due to new archaeological discoveries and the reinterpretation of known sources using new methods and perspectives. We are now in the middle of a process of consensus formation in which a multitude of diverse theories compete to attract the approval of the majority of researchers. More scholars than ever before are taking part in this enterprise, which means that more approaches, perspectives, and ideas share the scene and have to be taken into account before historical judgments are made.
That view is pretty much considered ridiculous by academics.One view is that the synagogue originated during the exile in Babylon as a spontaneous gathering of despondent faithful...
Have to admit that I have no knowledge of early synagogues, but the nature of the first temple is highly problematic, and the attempt to project things back seems to be always doomed to failure. My guess is that it is only during the later second temple that the temple fetish became more popular.
At least as far Chabad goes, we are still waiting for something accurate on their vast web site to be mentioned.
Re: The origin of the synagogue
Semiopen
If I want to know something about Judaism I go to a Rabbi and if there are several flavours of the stuff, then I would sample each one of them
If I want to know about …
I I want to know…
…
The change from an organized temple religion in an independent country to a chaotic loneliness as a captive in an alien land, that is what I wanted to know as it applied to the Israelites.
And what influence that experience had had in the life of the of the second commonwealth
I will zip it, though.
If I want to know something about Judaism I go to a Rabbi and if there are several flavours of the stuff, then I would sample each one of them
If I want to know about …
I I want to know…
…
The change from an organized temple religion in an independent country to a chaotic loneliness as a captive in an alien land, that is what I wanted to know as it applied to the Israelites.
And what influence that experience had had in the life of the of the second commonwealth
I will zip it, though.
Re: The origin of the synagogue
Sorry, you've taken my previous criticisms of Chabad with good humor. Personally, I've been quite pleased that my bold statement that everything on Chabad is a lie seems to hold with the examples you've provided; surely my sweeping statement must have some exceptions.
I watch with amazement when normally intelligent people that I associate with at my Chabad listen to the Rabbi's opinions about historical events and actually seem to take his answers seriously. I actually changed Chabad's, partially because the Rabbi at the other one gave much crazier exegesis.
As a recent example, the shmuck below gives a nutcase interpretation of Purim which my former Rabbi also expounded on -
Why did Ahasuerus throw such a stupendous party? A 180 day party, wow! - http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/265, ... y-wow.html
Maybe the wow! is because of the outrageous stupidity of his answer (perhaps it is an amusing legend but these guys believe it happened just like Obama beat Romney). My current Rabbi has the virtue of staying away from such annoying craziness, although he is not really more historically accurate.
Regarding the case we are discussing here, outside of a small circle of friends, I don't think the first temple was that big a deal. And the Chabad opinion about the history of the synagogue is just wrong.
I watch with amazement when normally intelligent people that I associate with at my Chabad listen to the Rabbi's opinions about historical events and actually seem to take his answers seriously. I actually changed Chabad's, partially because the Rabbi at the other one gave much crazier exegesis.
As a recent example, the shmuck below gives a nutcase interpretation of Purim which my former Rabbi also expounded on -
Why did Ahasuerus throw such a stupendous party? A 180 day party, wow! - http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/265, ... y-wow.html
Maybe the wow! is because of the outrageous stupidity of his answer (perhaps it is an amusing legend but these guys believe it happened just like Obama beat Romney). My current Rabbi has the virtue of staying away from such annoying craziness, although he is not really more historically accurate.
Regarding the case we are discussing here, outside of a small circle of friends, I don't think the first temple was that big a deal. And the Chabad opinion about the history of the synagogue is just wrong.
Re: The origin of the synagogue
Chabad was not mentioned in my post.
Chabad was used only as a link to Ezekiel and Chabad was selected because of Rashi.
It is Rashi who interprets the verse of Ezekiel as evidence for distinctive small assemblies of people functioning during the exile, which he says was like a synagogue
It is to this spontaneous getting together of ordinary people that Rashi wanted to attach a particular importance by using the name synagogue.
In Christian literature the name ‘church’ is often given to what must have been nothing more than a spontaneous gathering of people in a suitable house – and not at all like the later churches and cathedrals. Some of the Pauline ‘churches’ come to mind.
The thread is based on a book, but I will read the book quietly and argue with myself.
Chabad was used only as a link to Ezekiel and Chabad was selected because of Rashi.
It is Rashi who interprets the verse of Ezekiel as evidence for distinctive small assemblies of people functioning during the exile, which he says was like a synagogue
It is to this spontaneous getting together of ordinary people that Rashi wanted to attach a particular importance by using the name synagogue.
In Christian literature the name ‘church’ is often given to what must have been nothing more than a spontaneous gathering of people in a suitable house – and not at all like the later churches and cathedrals. Some of the Pauline ‘churches’ come to mind.
The thread is based on a book, but I will read the book quietly and argue with myself.
Re: The origin of the synagogue
It took me several days to realize that Beowulf's Chabad reference was indeed just the quotation from Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 11:16 is not exactly clear, not to mention the issues of who and when it was written.
Chabad comments on Ezekiel http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... zekiel.htm
I think this is partially based on Benjamin_of_Tudela
http://books.google.com/books?id=DUIUAA ... in&f=false
This is from the 12th century CE.
Who Invented the Synagogue? -http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... ote2a74339 is Rabbi Shlomo Yaffe's contribution
This is rather obscure -
Personally, I'm not clear on the Great Assembly, it seems to me that it was fictitious. The synagogue prayers such as the Kaddish are attributed to the Great Assembly but there is no evidence that they are older than late Talmudic times.
Ezekiel 11:16 is not exactly clear, not to mention the issues of who and when it was written.
Chabad comments on Ezekiel http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... zekiel.htm
On the surface this view seems at least partially sane. Then it goes on -Under Ezekiel's influence, the exiles built synagogues and houses of Torah study in Babylon, and the spirit of Judaism was kept alive.
Note the sudden descent into outrageous unattributed bullshit.After Nebuchadnezzar's death, his son Evill Merodach ascended the throne of the mighty Babylonian empire. He released King Jehoiachin from prison and treated him kindly.
Jehoiachin remembered the prophet Ezekiel who was buried between the rivers Chebar and Euphrates. Accompanied by scores of thousands of Jews, Jehoiachin went to his grave. There he built a tomb, and nearby a synagogue.
From far and near Jews made an annual pilgrimage to Ezekiel's tomb and prayed at his grave. The synagogue was always full of worshippers and students of the Torah. It was known as the Synagogue of Ezekiel and Jehoiachin. Every year on the Day of Atonement a special scroll of the Torah, written by the prophet's own hand, was taken from the Ark in that synagogue and read, and a perpetual light was kept burning there for many, many years.
I think this is partially based on Benjamin_of_Tudela
http://books.google.com/books?id=DUIUAA ... in&f=false
This is from the 12th century CE.
Who Invented the Synagogue? -http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... ote2a74339 is Rabbi Shlomo Yaffe's contribution
This is rather obscure -
A simple reading of this suggests that there were no synagogues before the Rabbis.The institution of the synagogue is of later, Rabbinic origin.
Here we see the weird 352 BCE date as opposed to 516 BCE more commonly used. I think this done by subtracting this from 70 CE to get the right (biblical) amount of years.After the restoration of the Second Temple (352 BCE), the Great Assembly2, led by Ezra, instituted the Kaddish, Kedushah, Barechu, and the rest of the standardized communal service (requiring the participation of a minyan or quorum of ten) as well as the obligation for individuals to participate in these services.
Personally, I'm not clear on the Great Assembly, it seems to me that it was fictitious. The synagogue prayers such as the Kaddish are attributed to the Great Assembly but there is no evidence that they are older than late Talmudic times.
Re: The origin of the synagogue
EVIL-MERODACH - http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... l-merodach turns out to be reminiscent of
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0026630/quotes
Austin Powers Group Therapy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMIDpJ8H7H0
Except, in this case, it's backwards אֱוִ֣יל מְרֹדַךְ (Jer 52:31 WTT)
This rap is right at the end of Jeremiah, the last four verses. Call me a radical but perhaps this was added much later to the rest of book.
goes into the theology. Dr. Levenson doesn't mention Jeremiah; probably detracts from the beautiful theological message to say the dufus copied it into two books.
How we get from there to the "Synagogue of Ezekiel and Jehoiachin" is obscure. That is just so outrageous that it is ridiculous to credit it with containing even a grain of truth.
Regarding Ezekiel 11:16
לָכֵ֣ן אֱמֹ֗ר כֹּֽה־אָמַר֮ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִה֒ כִּ֤י הִרְחַקְתִּים֙ בַּגּוֹיִ֔ם וְכִ֥י הֲפִֽיצוֹתִ֖ים בָּאֲרָצ֑וֹת וָאֱהִ֤י לָהֶם֙ לְמִקְדָּ֣שׁ מְעַ֔ט בָּאֲרָצ֖וֹת אֲשֶׁר־בָּ֥אוּ שָֽׁם׃ (Eze 11:16 WTT)
This is discussed in Ezekiel as the Voice of the Exiles and Constructor of Exilic Ideology - http://humanities.tau.ac.il/general_fil ... /8f3d8.pdf
frankly Dalit Rom-Shiloni's explanation confuses me (not unusual with Israeli academic writing style), but she discusses the key phrase on page 17. Clearly, the JPS team didn't think this phrase referred to a synagogue.
The issue gets a little complicated because Ezekiel uses לְמִקְדָּ֣שׁ twice in
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0026630/quotes
Therapist[Carrie Fisher]: We have some new-comers here today. Please say hello to Scott and his father Mr... Ev-ille?
Dr. Evil: Evil, Actually, Dr. Evil.
The Group: Hello, Scott. Hello, Dr. Evil.
Scott Evil: Hi, everybody.
Austin Powers Group Therapy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMIDpJ8H7H0
Except, in this case, it's backwards אֱוִ֣יל מְרֹדַךְ (Jer 52:31 WTT)
Anyway, so even though they call him evil, it doesn't mean he was evil, other than not being Jewish or whatever.In the thirty-seventh year of the exile of King Jehoiachin of Judah, on the twenty-fifth day of the twelfth month, King Evil-merodach of Babylon, in the year he became king, took note of King Jehoiachin of Judah and released him from prison. (Jer 52:31 TNK)
This rap is right at the end of Jeremiah, the last four verses. Call me a radical but perhaps this was added much later to the rest of book.
Needless to say there is some doubt if this ever happened, not to mention that these exact same lines also appear as the last four lines in 2 Kings. This is discussed in The Last Four Verses in Kings http://clio.missouristate.edu/mcooper/H ... 0Kings.pdfHe spoke kindly to him, and gave him a throne above those of other kings who were with him in Babylon. 33 He removed his prison garments and Jehoiachin ate regularly in his presence the rest of his life. 34 A regular allotment of food was given him by order of the king of Babylon, an allotment for each day, to the day of his death -- all the days of his life.
(Jer 52:32 TNK)
goes into the theology. Dr. Levenson doesn't mention Jeremiah; probably detracts from the beautiful theological message to say the dufus copied it into two books.
How we get from there to the "Synagogue of Ezekiel and Jehoiachin" is obscure. That is just so outrageous that it is ridiculous to credit it with containing even a grain of truth.
Regarding Ezekiel 11:16
לָכֵ֣ן אֱמֹ֗ר כֹּֽה־אָמַר֮ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִה֒ כִּ֤י הִרְחַקְתִּים֙ בַּגּוֹיִ֔ם וְכִ֥י הֲפִֽיצוֹתִ֖ים בָּאֲרָצ֑וֹת וָאֱהִ֤י לָהֶם֙ לְמִקְדָּ֣שׁ מְעַ֔ט בָּאֲרָצ֖וֹת אֲשֶׁר־בָּ֥אוּ שָֽׁם׃ (Eze 11:16 WTT)
It might be worth mentioning Lord God - אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִה֒ today you can't put these words together because it is pronounced "adonai adonai" although when we read them now we say "adonai elohim". So this is probably older than most of the Pentateuch, the guy is probably not talking about the temple when he says לְמִקְדָּ֣שׁ מְעַ֔ט or "diminished sanctity" here or "minor sanctuary" in Beowulf's innocent Chabad quote.Say then: Thus said the Lord GOD: I have indeed removed them far among the nations and have scattered them among the countries, and I have become to them a diminished sanctity in the countries whither they have gone.
(Eze 11:16 TNK)
This is discussed in Ezekiel as the Voice of the Exiles and Constructor of Exilic Ideology - http://humanities.tau.ac.il/general_fil ... /8f3d8.pdf
frankly Dalit Rom-Shiloni's explanation confuses me (not unusual with Israeli academic writing style), but she discusses the key phrase on page 17. Clearly, the JPS team didn't think this phrase referred to a synagogue.
The issue gets a little complicated because Ezekiel uses לְמִקְדָּ֣שׁ twice in
where the meaning of sanctuary is pretty clear. That is Ezekiel's temple rap where Chabad (and I'm sure other Haredi) has the rather absurd opinion that it deals with the third temple. Again, note that JPS feels the words here have a different meaning than 11:16.Then you shall take the bull of sin offering and burn it in the designated area of the Temple, outside the Sanctuary.
(Eze 43:21 TNK)
it is a sacred portion of the land; it shall provide space for houses for the priests, the ministrants of the Sanctuary who are qualified to minister to the LORD, as well as holy ground for the Sanctuary. (Eze 45:4 TNK)
Re: The origin of the synagogue
semiopen
I have tried to find an English translation of Targum Jonathan for Ezekiel 11:16, but failed to find one.
Apparently Targum Jonathan translates Ez 11:16 as, "and I have become for them synagogues, second to My temple". Could you kindly advise?
I have tried to find an English translation of Targum Jonathan for Ezekiel 11:16, but failed to find one.
Apparently Targum Jonathan translates Ez 11:16 as, "and I have become for them synagogues, second to My temple". Could you kindly advise?
Re: The origin of the synagogue
I hope I haven't tricked you into thinking that I know what I'm writing about.beowulf wrote:semiopen
I have tried to find an English translation of Targum Jonathan for Ezekiel 11:16, but failed to find one.
Apparently Targum Jonathan translates Ez 11:16 as, "and I have become for them synagogues, second to My temple". Could you kindly advise?
The Talmud speaks of a Targum written by Jonathan_ben_Uzziel which was an exposition of the prophets. The existence of such a person has to be a little questionable, whether he wrote such a work is a little more questionable, and whether we have a copy of this work is really dubious.
One of the surprising peculiarities of the sages is that they apparently didn't know how to write. They employed a class of scribes to memorize the Talmud as it was put together. At some point, in the eighth century give or take, this was written down.
Targum "Yonatan ben 'Uzziel" to the Torah: - http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Talm ... natan.html
The title of "Targum Yonatan ben 'Uzziel" is based on an erroneous attribution. Rabbi Jonathan ben 'Uzziel was a first-century rabbi who is credited in the Talmud with the composition of an Aramaic translation of the Prophetic books of the Bible, and such a translation does exist. Based on literary and linguistic analysis, it is clear that the present work is a much later compilation.
This is a little tricky to search for, I think I found the verse inThe final editing of this Targum may have taken place around the eighth century, though it includes materials from much earlier times.
http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/searching/targumsearch.html
בְכֵין אֲמַר״#3#״ כִדנָן אֲמַר יוי אֲלֹהִים אֲרֵי אַרחֵיקתַנוּן לְבֵינֵי עַמְמַיָא וַאֲרֵי בַדַרתִינוּן בִמדִינָתָא וִיהַבִית לְהוֹן בְתֵי כְנֵישָתָא תִניָן לְבֵית מַקדְשִי וְאִנוּן כִזעֵיר בִמדִינָתָא דְאִתַגלִיאוּ לְתַמָן׃
My knowledge of Aramaic is even worse than my Hebrew but the key phrase looks like לְבֵית מַקדְשִי where this seems like it is talking about the temple (Beit Mikdash).
Personally I wouldn't take this as something that clarifies the issue. The eighth century after all is not that far from Rashi's time and we already know what he thought about it.