Women of the Wall

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
semiopen
Posts: 463
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by semiopen » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am

The foundation of modern Judaism is Rabbinic_Judaism
Although there are now profound differences among Jewish denominations of Rabbinic Judaism with respect to the binding force of halakha (Jewish religious law) and the willingness to challenge preceding interpretations, all identify themselves as coming from the tradition of the oral law and the rabbinic method of analysis.
Oral_Torah
According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.[1][clarification needed]
Of course, this claim is an outrageous lie, but it has been accepted by all Jews. Reform, Conservative and Recontructionist included.

Karaite_Judaism is an exception but they number 25,000 at the most. Maybe it's sad that they are not considered Kosher by other Jews.

One could spend a lifetime studying and practicing Judaism without considering the Karaites.

I don't understand what your goal is in these posts. Anyone can go to the Kotel and pray.

Jewish_prayer
Jewish prayer (Hebrew: תְּפִלָּה, tefillah [tefiˈla]; plural Hebrew: תְּפִלּוֹת, tefillot [tefiˈlot]; Yiddish תּפֿלה tfile [ˈtfɪlə], plural תּפֿלות tfilles [ˈtfɪləs]; Yinglish: davening /ˈdɑːvənɪŋ/ from Yiddish דאַוון daven ‘pray’) are the prayer recitations and Jewish meditation traditions that form part of the observance of Rabbinic Judaism. These prayers, often with instructions and commentary, are found in the siddur, the traditional Jewish prayer book. However, the term tefillah as referenced in the Talmud refers specifically to the Shemoneh Esreh.
I didn't look at what the women wanted to do specifically but it seemed like some kind of communal thing, reading scrolls and shit like that, maybe holding hands.

In Jewish philosophy and in Rabbinic literature, it is noted that the Hebrew verb for prayer—hitpallel התפלל—is in fact the reflexive form of palal פלל, to judge. Thus, "to pray" conveys the notion of "judging oneself":[27] ultimately, the purpose of prayer—tefilah תפלה—is to transform ourselves.[28][29]
This etymology is consistent with the Jewish conception of divine simplicity. It is not God that changes through our prayer—Man does not influence God as a defendant influences a human judge who has emotions and is subject to change—rather it is man himself who is changed.[30] It is further consistent with Maimonides' view on Divine Providence. Here, Tefillah is the medium which God gave to man by means of which he can change himself, and thereby establish a new relationship with God—and thus a new destiny for himself in life;[30][31] see also under Psalms.
A good way to commune with God is to do it alone. It is good to have a Minyan
There is a disagreement between the medieval commentators on whether prayer with a minyan is preferable or obligatory. Rashi is of the view that an individual is obligated to pray with a minyan, while Nahmanides holds that only if ten adult males are present are they obliged to recite their prayer together, but an individual is not required to seek out a minyan.[8]
Being part of a minyan sort of fulfills a mtzvah, in any case, there is no big spiritual advantage to pray with a group. Praying with a group can be a problem; social interactions during prayer are dangerous as it is easy to get distracted. Assuming that there is a God listening to your prayers, the last thing one wants is to piss him off.

My problem with the Women of the Wall on this is that it is not a totally honest complaint in my opinion. These people are not going to the wall to pray but to meet like minded people and publicize the various social issues (which I am sympathetic to).

John2
Posts: 2740
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by John2 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:37 pm

semiopen wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am
The foundation of modern Judaism is Rabbinic_Judaism
Of course, this claim [about the oral Torah] is an outrageous lie, but it has been accepted by all Jews. Reform, Conservative and Recontructionist included.


Of course, because those are Rabbinic Jews and not Karaites.

Karaite_Judaism is an exception but they number 25,000 at the most. Maybe it's sad that they are not considered Kosher by other Jews.

One could spend a lifetime studying and practicing Judaism without considering the Karaites.

You can like Rabbinic Judaism all you want.

I don't understand what your goal is in these posts. Anyone can go to the Kotel and pray.


The point of this thread is to lament the treatment of and violence against non-Orthodox Jews praying at the Wall. Sure, "Anyone can go to the Kotel and pray," but why can't non-Orthodox Jews pray there however they like? To cite Isaac Kight again, "In order for Zionism to succeed and for Judaism to prosper, every Jew must be included equally. Together we will draw strength from our brotherhood."

I think a big part of the problem with respect to Orthodox hostility to the Women of the Wall is that they do not view some non-Orthodox Jews as Jewish, and I think that the overall Karaite approach towards women (and other denominations) is more sensible.
The Karaites and Orthodox disagree on many issues, including what holidays to celebrate. Karaite women also have a more equal status than in rabbinical Orthodoxy. Like Reform and Conservative Jews, Karaites do not adhere to the strictly Orthodox prohibition against hearing a woman sing. Karaite couples both sign a religious marriage contract, and a woman can be granted a divorce even against her husband’s will.

But as opposed to the advent of the more egalitarian Reform and Conservative strains popular with American Jews, Mr. Haroeh said, “We were always like that.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/worl ... srael.html


I don't see how it matters if there are fewer Karaite Jews than Rabbinic Jews. While the above article says, "the community is estimated at 30,000 to 50,000, out of Israel’s population of eight million," it goes on to say:
The community is undergoing a revival. Dozens of Karaite children attended a summer camp here in August. Eli Eltachan, the deputy chairman of the community and a manager at Ericsson, said that the young, educated professionals now in leadership roles had brought “a new spirit.”
It's fine with me if you prefer Rabbinic Judaism, but non-Rabbinic Jews have existed for as long as (if not longer than) Rabbinic Judaism (like the Sadducees, Essenes, the Fourth Philosophy and the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls), and at one point Karaites even numbered up to 40% of Jews (not that the numbers "matter," just to point out that not all Jews have been or are currently Rabbinic).

And while most Jews are Rabbinic, most are also not Orthodox. So why should only the Orthodox get to decide who is a Jew in Israel and what is "appropriate behavior" at the most significant religious and national site in Judaism? In other words, why should a minority denomination be able to discriminate against the others?

My problem with the Women of the Wall on this is that it is not a totally honest complaint in my opinion. These people are not going to the wall to pray but to meet like minded people and publicize the various social issues (which I am sympathetic to).

I don't know what all of their motivations may be, but it appears to at least involve praying at the Wall how they see fit, and I think all Jews should be able to do that.

And Karaite Judaism is small but it is growing, both in Israel and outside of it. I've seen it happening over the last 25 years. Regarding the Karaite synagogue in Daly City, California, for example, this article notes:
With about 100 in attendance, the space was bursting with people and energy ...

Speaking on the panel, Firrouz emphasized the importance of Jewish unity, while maintaining different identities within the whole. “We are all one Jewish nation, but each community wishes to keep its identity,” he said. “Each person must choose how to act.” This is reflective of the Karaite ethos of personal decisions within a cohesive community ...

There were plenty of supporters from other streams of Judaism in evidence, including a group from Peninsula Sinai Congregation in Foster City. Peninsula Sinai hosted the Karaite community’s events years ago, before the Daly City building was purchased, and again over the past year during construction. Rabbi Corey Helfand received a plaque thanking his congregation for its help and friendship.

Rabbi Daniel Stein also was there with a delegation from Congregation B’nai Shalom in Walnut Creek, which has a few Karaite members who live too far to attend B’nai Israel regularly. “I confess, I did have to Google ‘Karaite Jews’ yesterday. I never knew anything about them before,” said B’nai Shalom member Celia Menczel. “It’s very moving to be here.”

https://www.jweekly.com/2018/08/22/the- ... synagogue/
And this one notes:
But now, nearly half a century after their traumatic expulsion from their Egyptian homeland and already established in the United States, the Karaite Jews of America have seen a surge of interest from Jews and non-Jews alike. And as the historic generation of Egyptian Karaites grows older, there is new urgency to ensure the Karaite way of life continues here. The concern is not whether Karaite practice will die out all together: The stronghold of Karaism undoubtedly lies in Israel, where a community is said to be about 40,000 strong, comprising the bulk of practicing Karaites in the world, and on which the Daly City community relies for religious guidance and instruction. But in America, the future of the movement lies not with those who have cultural ties to Karaism, but those who, somewhere in life’s journey, become convinced of its truth ...

When I asked why he [Shawn Lichaa] wants a Karaite revival, he said it’s for the sake of all Judaism. “People are walking away from Judaism, daily,” he said. “There are Jews out there who are less observant because they don’t know that there is another option for them, they don’t know that a lot of the things they have learned about the Jewish belief system don’t have to be true. There are people with questions who haven’t even seen Karaite perspectives.” But it’s not just about offering an alternative. It’s also about truth. “We view ourselves as the original and the most historical way to do this,” Lichaa said.

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-a ... r-heard-of
But in any event, it doesn't matter to me if Karaites are a small denomination. If we want to judge Judaism solely by numbers, then most Jews are non-Orthodox. So why not celebrate and give equal rights in Israel to (as Isaac Kight wrote above) "the wide array of Jewish customs, beliefs and religious movements"? Why does this idea bother you?
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semiopen
Posts: 463
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by semiopen » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:28 am

John2 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:37 pm
semiopen wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am

I don't understand what your goal is in these posts. Anyone can go to the Kotel and pray.


The point of this thread is to lament the treatment of and violence against non-Orthodox Jews praying at the Wall. Sure, "Anyone can go to the Kotel and pray," but why can't non-Orthodox Jews pray there however they like? To cite Isaac Kight again, "In order for Zionism to succeed and for Judaism to prosper, every Jew must be included equally. Together we will draw strength from our brotherhood."

I think a big part of the problem with respect to Orthodox hostility to the Women of the Wall is that they do not view some non-Orthodox Jews as Jewish, and I think that the overall Karaite approach towards women (and other denominations) is more sensible.
You're wasting a lot of space showing your ignorance, situation normal I guess.

The nature of the brotherhood should not be underestimated. A traditional Jewish family will not allow a marriage with someone whose ancestry is questionable. My daughter recently had a DNA ancestry test and it came back 50% ashkenazi - presumably that is from my side of the equation. My father and mother were second or third cousins, in fact, all Askenazis are quite closely related. That is probably 1000 years of not a single clear instance of a woman getting knocked up by a gentile in a population of tens of millions.

The insularity of Jewish society has been disntegrating since the time of the Haskalah -
The Haskalah, often termed Jewish Enlightenment (Hebrew: השכלה; literally, "wisdom", "erudition") was an intellectual movement among the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe, with certain influence on those in Western Europe and the Muslim world. It arose as a defined ideological worldview during the 1770s, and its last stage ended around 1881, with the rise of Jewish nationalism.

The Haskalah pursued two complementary aims. It sought to preserve the Jews as a separate, unique collective and worked for a cultural and moral renewal, especially a revival of Hebrew for secular purposes, pioneering the modern press and literature in the language. Concurrently, it strove for an optimal integration of the Jews in surrounding societies, including the study of native vernacular and adoption of modern values, culture and appearance, all combined with economic productivization. The Haskalah promoted rationalism, liberalism, freedom of thought and enquiry, and is largely perceived as the Jewish variant of the general Age of Enlightenment. The movement encompassed a wide spectrum ranging from moderates, who hoped for maximal compromise and conservatism, to radicals who sought sweeping changes.
Haskalah was followed by Jewish_emancipation
The emancipation disrupted the relationship the Jews had with their religion, which could not govern any longer all the actions in their lives. Many considered a practice of Judaism more closely to the lifestyle of their non-Jewish fellow citizens. The emancipation in France, Italy, Germany, at least during the Empire, permitted many Jews to leave the ghettos and contribute, as a result of the Haskalah, to the development of Reform during the 19th century. The emancipation contributed moreover to the assimilation of Jews and sometimes to their cultural disappearance when Jews merged through marriage in the surrounding society. It was not until Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch defined a modern vision of orthodox Judaism, enabling orthodox Jews to participate fully in a society.[6][not in citation given][clarification needed] Ultimately, emancipation immersed the Jews into a new culture. In doing so, Jews were able to not only see themselves as members of a religious sect, but also as citizens within society.
This is still sort of an open issue, as it probably had some influence on conditions leading to the Holocaust.

Rudolf_Steiner is an important figure in assimilation discussions. Steiner, in many ways was a saintly person but -
During the years when Steiner was best known as a literary critic, he published a series of articles attacking various manifestations of antisemitism[154] and criticizing some of the most prominent anti-Semites of the time as "barbaric" and "enemies of culture".[155] On a number of occasions, however, Steiner suggested that Jewish cultural and social life had lost all contemporary relevance[156] and promoted full assimilation of the Jewish people into the nations in which they lived. This stance has come under severe criticism in recent years.[149]
My assessment is he sort of is considered an anti-semite in academic circles nowadays which is ironic -
The National Socialist German Workers Party gained strength in Germany after the First World War. In 1919, a political theorist of this movement, Dietrich Eckart, attacked Steiner and suggested that he was a Jew.[46] In 1921, Adolf Hitler attacked Steiner on many fronts, including accusations that he was a tool of the Jews,[47] while other nationalist extremists in Germany called for a "war against Steiner". That same year, Steiner warned against the disastrous effects it would have for Central Europe if the National Socialists came to power.[46]:8 In 1922 a lecture Steiner was giving in Munich was disrupted when stink bombs were let off and the lights switched out, while people rushed the stage apparently attempting to attack Steiner, who exited safely through a back door.[48][49] Unable to guarantee his safety, Steiner's agents cancelled his next lecture tour.[32]:193[50] The 1923 Beer Hall Putsch in Munich led Steiner to give up his residence in Berlin, saying that if those responsible for the attempted coup [Hitler and others] came to power in Germany, it would no longer be possible for him to enter the country.[51]
Seeing how fucked up everything is, it is no surprise that many traditional Jews have negative or mixed emotions about assimilation, and their dismay at Canaanite bullshit going on at a relatively sacred place deserves a little pause.

In the overall scheme of things, the Women of the Wall being hassled by the Orthodox is part of a trivial dispute over something that nobody really cares that much about. Maybe it's me; I recited the Amidah at the Kotel. Nobody had to tell me to wear a Kippah because it was unthinkable not to. If I visit Israel again, the Kotel wquld not be high on places to visit, although it is cool to see soldiers walking around with machine guns.

Perhaps someday in the future, your lamentation of this grave injustice will be read in synagogues around the world along side the Book_of_Lamentations
... it is generally accepted that the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon in 586 BC forms the background to the poems.[3] The book is partly a traditional "city lament" mourning the desertion of the city by God, its destruction, and the ultimate return of the divinity, and partly a funeral dirge in which the bereaved bewails and addresses the dead.[3] The tone is bleak: God does not speak, the degree of suffering is presented as undeserved, and expectations of future redemption are minimal.[4]
Seems like other generations had more serious issues.

nili
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by nili » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:42 am

semiopen wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am
According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.[1][clarification needed]
Of course, this claim is an outrageous lie, but it has been accepted by all Jews. Reform, Conservative and Recontructionist included.
"... an outrageous lie ... accepted by all Jews"? -- That is simply nonsense. I am a Jew in my mid 70's and fairly active in my synagogue. This involvement includes participation in services, Torah classes, and social justice advocacy over a good number of years. In the course of this activity I've encountered exceedingly few Jews who would embrace the tradition as fact, rendering your claim the "outrageous lie."

semiopen
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by semiopen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:41 am

nili wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:42 am
semiopen wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am
According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.[1][clarification needed]
Of course, this claim is an outrageous lie, but it has been accepted by all Jews. Reform, Conservative and Recontructionist included.
"... an outrageous lie ... accepted by all Jews"? -- That is simply nonsense. I am a Jew in my mid 70's and fairly active in my synagogue. This involvement includes participation in services, Torah classes, and social justice advocacy over a good number of years. In the course of this activity I've encountered exceedingly few Jews who would embrace the tradition as fact, rendering your claim the "outrageous lie."
The Oral Torah was not passed down in an unbroken tradition from Sinai, although that concept is theoretically accepted in all forms of Rabbinical Judaism today.

I'm not sure I was referring to people in your Torah class, etc. Ever wonder why synagogues don't go into actual Jewish history (1000 CE to the present) very much?

Many Jews believe the unbroken oral tradition is a literal truth today, some of those who don't, presumably go through some mental gymnastics to come to a kosher result. The original idea, pretty much unchallenged until the 17th century, was that the chain of transmission from Sinai was literally true.

Although my characterization of the situation might be provocative, there is no reason to turn that into a personal accusation. That's more of a traditional response. For example -

RESPONSE TO RABBI SEGAL - http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Segal.cfm

This is a response to a Rabbi who wrote some crazy shit about http://daatemet.org.il/en/.
Some time ago you published a brochure Zachor Cherpatcha Mini Naval ("Remember Your Shame of a Villain") as an attempt to answer the claims of the Daat Emet pamphlets. Maybe your intention was to defend our Torah and to sanctify the name of G-d, but you missed the mark because of your lack of knowledge in the matters spoken of, because of arrogance and grumbling, and because of even more severe things, as we shall show. You wrote 53 pages to answer 5 Daat Emet pamphlets and even complained that doing this is a bitul Torah, but half of the things written are abuse, cursing, and bad language. You called the author of the pamphlets "a villain," "a sick person," "a crazy one," compared him to Hitler, and used many other harmful and offensive titles hardly conceivable for the Sons of Israel, "bashful, merciful, and performing charity" (Yevamot 79a). All this writing is a definite bitul Torah and isn't a way to sanctify G-d's name, nor does it help to answer the Daat Emet questions, so it's a pity for us that a rabbi wrote this.
No question that Judaism has it's fair share of assholes.

There is a certain amount of irony here as I find myself defending the traditional view. I'm neutral on acceptable proper prayer methodology at the Kotel - perhaps we can all agree that human sacrifice might be a little over the top. My point is merely that in this particular case - appropriate behavior for Jewish public prayer - the Haredi deserve to be listened to with respect.

Rabbinic_Judaism has important characteristic features.
Until the Haskalah (Hebrew: "Jewish enlightenment") of the late 18th century, and the resulting division of Ashkenazi Jews into religious movements or denominations, especially in North America and anglophone countries, halakha had the universal status of required religious practice.[citation needed] This remains the prevailing position among Orthodox and Conservative Jews.
As secular Jews, we should respect those who meticulously follow the commandments - this is a window into how are forebears lived and thought - of course, for a convert, not so much.

Note that the quote mentions that only after the Haskalah were Jews free to even have a conversation about different ways of worship.

John2
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by John2 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:20 pm

As secular Jews, we should respect those who meticulously follow the commandments - this is a window into how are forebears lived and thought - of course, for a convert, not so much.

Note that the quote mentions that only after the Haskalah were Jews free to even have a conversation about different ways of worship.
But this is where I disagree with you. It's not that I don't think that Rabbinic Judaism and the ultra-Orthodox in Israel deserve some respect for existing, it is that I think the other denominations of Judaism deserve equal respect and equal rights to practice their particular observances at Jewish holy sites.

And you make it sound like Karaite Jews did not exist before the Haskalah, or that Rabbinic Jews were not aware of Karaite Jews prior to that. They are our forebears too, and the way Karaites meticulously follow the commandments today is a window into how they lived and thought.

And I have no respect for Jews who harass or use violence against other Jews trying to pray in accordance with their particular denomination at the Wall or anywhere else.
Last edited by John2 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John2
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by John2 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:02 pm

And regarding the treatment of women in Judaism, I have more respect for Karaites.
Another important principle to me is the role of women in Karaite Judaism. In our tradition, a woman can sign her ketubah, be a witness on someone else’s ketubah, initiate a divorce from her husband, pray out loud in front of men in our synagogues, and much more.

I like to think that we, Karaite women, preserve the strength and initiative of many female leaders in the Tanakh, including Zipora who conducted Berit Mila for her son, and Miriam who was a prophetess of Israel, and Devora who was a judge of Israel, and many others.

http://abluethread.com/2018/12/12/great ... #more-3201
And what I don't have respect for is the status quo.
... there have been limits placed on non-Orthodox streams of Judaism. One of those restrictions is that the Rabbi of the Western Wall has enforced gender segregation and limitations on religious garb worn by women. When the "Women of the Wall" hold monthly prayer services for women on Rosh Hodesh, they observe gender segregation so that Orthodox members may fully participate. But their use of religious garb, singing and reading from a Torah have upset some members of the Orthodox Jewish community, sparking protests and arrests ...

In January 2016, the Israeli Cabinet approved a plan to designate a new space at the Kotel that would be available for egalitarian prayer and which would not be controlled by the Rabbinate. Women of the Wall welcomed the decision, but the plan faced opposition from other factions, including some ultra-Orthodox members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's governing coalition, who threatened to withdraw over the government's plan to create non-Orthodox prayer space at the Western Wall in deference to the Women of the Wall.

In January 2017, the Israeli High Court ruled that if the government of Israel could not find "good cause" to prohibit women reading from the Torah in prayer services at the Kotel within 30 days, women could do so; they also ruled that the Israeli government could no longer argue that the Robinson's Arch area of the plaza is access to the Kotel. The petition for women to read from the Torah at the Kotel had been brought by a group that split off from the Women of the Wall, calling itself the "Original Women of the Wall".

In June 2017, it was announced that the plan approved in January 2016 had been suspended.

According to Ronit Kampf, the group's struggle has been "the most covered women's issue in the history of the Israeli media" ...

From the outset, the Women of the Wall have been subjected to heckling and abuse from male and female Orthodox worshipers. More recently, the extremists who oppose the Women of the Wall have been criticized by Israel's predominantly secular society, which objects not only to the religious extremists' harassment of Women of the Wall but attempts to ban mixing of genders in public places such buses and sidewalks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_of_the_Wall
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semiopen
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by semiopen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:47 pm

John2 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:20 pm
As secular Jews, we should respect those who meticulously follow the commandments - this is a window into how are forebears lived and thought - of course, for a convert, not so much.

Note that the quote mentions that only after the Haskalah were Jews free to even have a conversation about different ways of worship.
But this is where I disagree with you. It's not that I don't think that Rabbinic Judaism and the ultra-Orthodox in Israel deserve some respect for existing, it is that I think the other denominations of Judaism deserve equal respect and equal rights to practice their particular observances at Jewish holy sites.

And you make it sound like Karaite Jews did not exist before the Haskalah, or that Rabbinic Jews were not aware of Karaite Jews prior to that. They are our forebears too, and the way Karaites meticulously follow the commandments today is a window into how they lived and thought.

And I have no respect for Jews who harass or use violence against other Jews trying to pray in accordance with their particular denomination at the Wall or anywhere else.
Yes, we disagree about differences in quality of prayer between an observant versus secular Jew.

Observant Jews pray to a God that brings the rain, for example; secular Jews pray to something else.

The academic field of Jewish Studies has almost no interest in Reform Judaism, or the other liberal sects. I noticed 131 papers on academia.edu with Reform Judaism in the title.

One interesting reform guy was Max_Lilienthal
Max Lilienthal (November 6, 1815 – April 6, 1882) was a German-born adviser for the reform of Jewish schools in Russia and later a rabbi and proponent of Reform Judaism in the United States.
Max Lilienthal held a doctorate from the University of Munich when Ludwig Philippson recommended him to head a school inspired by the Enlightenment in Riga, then a part of the Russian Empire. He arrived in Riga in 1840. He made a greater impact with the Minister of National Enlightenment, Sergey Uvarov, with that he did with the school. The next year, Uvarov summoned Lilienthal to serve as the Ministry of National Enlightenment's "learned Jew."[1] Lilienthal's most important task was to convince the Jews of the importance of enlightened education.
This caused a bit of a kerfuffle with the Haredi. For example -

The Tzemach Tzedek and Max Lilienthal http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=4470

The Rebbe's victory over the evil Lilienthal is one of Chabad's most precious collective memories. Chabad sort of implies that he also weas doing some stuff that may not have been legal.
As a rabbi in Cincinnati, he promoted Reform Judaism. He wrote for several publications and was an advocate for both Jewish and secular schools, teaching at Hebrew Union College and serving on the Cincinnati board of education.

Lilienthal was later an active supporter of the movement to abolish slavery in the United States, though a minority of American Jews, primarily those in the South, were themselves slaveholders and disagreed strongly with his position.[5]
After the gig with the Tzar was over he came to the US and was an important person in the Reform movement. By most credible accounts, a decent guy - shows how nasty these things can get.

My understanding of the Karaites is that they had some dispute during the writing of the Talmud and wound up rejecting the concept of the unbroken oral tradition. Again, there is not a whole lot of academic interest in them, mostly just a dearth of great thinkers - a few Karaites are considered OK in biblical knowledge, but my impression is that they are generally portrayed as buffoons by the sages.

Have to admit that constructing a better Judaism isn't one of my priorities - once you get rid of everything questionable there probably won't be a whole lot left.

John2
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Re: Women of the Wall

Post by John2 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:31 am

If you like Rabbinic Judaism and are content with the status quo in Israel, then so be it. And if you want to keep telling me things I already know about Rabbinic Judaism, feel free.
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