Question regarding the Hebrew in Exodus 15

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Secret Alias
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Re: Question regarding the Hebrew in Exodus 15

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:23 pm

רום מעלה in kabbalah the first and highest sephira 'the inscrutable height' has a value of 391. A lot of the names in the early Mishnaic period are likely ciphers too. Akiba ben Joseph = עֲקִיבָא בֶּן יוֹסֵף = 391. As such this was not likely a real person. On the use of gematria of 391 among the early Christians:

“R. Akiba adds: He who reads the external books; and he who whispers over a wound, saying: All the sickness which I brought on Egypt I will not bring upon thee, etc. (Exodus 15:26). Abba Saul adds: He who pronounces the Name with its proper letters” (Tosefta Sanhedrin XII, 10).

Ginzberg proposes that the answer lies in the last words of the verse: “I YHWH am your healer.” The numerical value of these words comes out to 391; the same numerical value as the name Joshua/Jesus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Question regarding the Hebrew in Exodus 15

Post by semiopen » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:46 pm

Ulan wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:10 am
Now let me get this straight: I consider the book of Exodus to be a post-exilic text, written in the 6th century at the earliest and probably still edited in the 4th or 3rd century BC. The text of the Song of the Sea itself (the bulk of the first half of the chapter) cannot be "ludicrously" early, either, given the list of opponents in that text. However, the song lacks the whole Sinai stuff - it's just the battle against the Egyptians, followed by the battles on entry into Canaan, which is usually seen as an older layer. "Archaic" in this sense is "coming from the time of Kings", probably the so-called Northern Kingdom.

But thanks for the link. This should give me some more insights.
Edit: Read it. It basically says that the question is still debated. I found it interesting that, in some cases, putative ABH may even be a sign of younger age, because it may hint at Aramaisms. At least there are still holdouts that think that Exodus 15 is truly old.
By "ludicrously early" I meant something before the 10th century BCE.

The big question seems to be the Song of Miriam.

Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women went out after her in dance with timbrels. (Exod. 15:20 TNK)
And Miriam chanted for them: Sing to the LORD, for He has triumphed gloriously; Horse and driver He has hurled into the sea. (Exod. 15:21 TNK)

Konrad Schmid considers this possibly old but he doesn't believe the rest of Exodus 15 is prior to the 7th century BCE.

It is weird that Aaron is brought into the conversation, it definitely took awhile to get the story straight.

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Re: Question regarding the Hebrew in Exodus 15

Post by Ulan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:15 pm

Yes, the concern for Aaron borders on the comical. For example, his appointment as speaker for Moses is repeated three times in Exodus.

Anyway, I can see why the current form of the text isn't seen as very old. Still, I'm not sure whether it doesn't contain an older kernel other than those two sentences from Miriam. This is admittedly pure speculation. I still find it somewhat funny that, when I read summaries of the process of how the Book of Exodus came to be in the latest Jan Assmann book, everything is nicely laid out, but the most famous bit of the story, the Song of Miriam, has no obvious anchor in anything tangible.

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Re: Question regarding the Hebrew in Exodus 15

Post by Ethan » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:51 am

יָהּ is Paean (Παιάν, Παιήων) "Healer" i.e. choral song, song of triumph after victory, battle-song.
- III - In Prosody, paeon, is a foot consisting of 3 short and 1 long syll., _^^^, ^_^^, ^^_^, or ^^^_.

This is apparent in Ancient Greek songs. ... g=original ... 29lalai%2F

Io Paieon, Io, cry— (ἀλαλαὶ ἰὴ παιήων)
For victory, leap!
Attained by me, leap!
Euoi Euoi Euai Euai (εὐοῖ εὐοῖ, εὐαί εὐαί) = הוי (Isa 1:4)
εὐοῖ = ῖοὐε (יְהוָה)

Psalm 115:17 ""The dead praise not Paean, neither any that go down into the house of Hades""
לא המתים יהללו־יה ולא כל־ירדי דומה

יהללו־יה (ἀλαλαὶ ἰὴ παιήων)
דומה ( δῶμ᾽Ἀίδαο) *Odyssey 12.20

Psalm 68:5 - בְּיָהּ שְׁמֹו "Paean is his name"
Isaiah 26:5 - כִּי בְּיָהּ יְהוָה צוּר עֹולָמִֽים "Paean Zeus is the everlasting God" (Healer Zeus) ... n&la=greek

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Re: Question regarding the Hebrew in Exodus 15

Post by Ulan » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:05 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:38 pm
The Samaritan text says gibbor of war not ish of war. Also this is a Song. It is literally 'performed' so it was likely - like Homer - something passed along by oral tradition before the codification of the Torah. ... sic-choir/ The description of Philo with respect to the Therapeuts is clearly a preservation of the identical tradition 2000 years ago. The fact that Miriam is present means they are singing the Song of the Sea. ... 1552686251
Yes, that's something I always consider. It falls into the category of liturgy, which is often old, and as a hymn, it may also fit the category of "court poetry", which is also considered to be one of the older categories of texts. The texts we look at may also have been edited at a later stage, which makes age determinations notoriously difficult.

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