Can you confirm the Jewish view of our elevation in Eden?

[DCHindley]

I have it on good authority that the elevation of Eden was believed, in antiquity, to be 5,280 English feet, or 2,370,527 Parasangs, as measured by the pigmy inhabitants of lemuria.

Welcome to the Mile High Club ...

Mr Scowling Waggyfinger

[Stephan Huller]

The Samaritans believed Eden stood at the top of Mount Gerizim - not the current hill you see in Israel. The top of the mountain went back up to heaven when Israel sinned

[Gnostic Bishop]

Look again for the first time. To the religious right, women sit at the back of the bus and the gays walk.

Regards
DL

What is a Gnostic Christian?

Perhaps the only moral form of a Christian.

We do not believe in human sacrifice or punishing the innocent6 instead of the guilty as the Christians do with their notions of vicarious redemption. Not Jesus the Christian scapegoat and whipping boy.

No two Gnostics will agree on everything but this link shows a general belief system.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

You need not be a Gnostic to internalize the myths you might believe in. It is the Gnostic method of seeking that is enlightening and not the particular myth you prefer. All the Gods are are heroes of 1,000 faces.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Can you confirm the Jewish view of our elevation in Eden?

As others have no doubt noted, there is rarely 'a' Jewish view.

I did a little reading on this.

There was an older view that Gnosticism started in Judaism prior to Christianity.

This is puzzling because, assuming a guy with Gnostic in his name knows about gnosticism, why even ask the question?

It turns out that the more current view is that one of the implications of the Nag_Hammadi_library is that gnosticism arose from Christianity.

Some elements of gnosticism then came into Judaism.

Assuming my outline is correct, the premise of the OP seems to be busted. The backwards view of Genesis 2-3 seems to be originally Christian. I'm quite comfortable giving Christianity credit for this.

You are comfy giving Christians the credit for a Jewish myth. Ok.

I agree and believe that Gnostic Christianity was the original Christianity and came from the Jewish Kabbala.

He was a Universalist type of God of peace whereas Rome wanted a Gods of war. Rome won and wrote Jesus up their way.

You will note that the Eastern custom was to seek wisdom while all Rome wanted was obedience.

The stupid are so much easier to lead. They do not question.

Regards
DL

[semiopen]

You are comfy giving Christians the credit for a Jewish myth. Ok.

I agree and believe that Gnostic Christianity was the original Christianity and came from the Jewish Kabbala.

He was a Universalist type of God of peace whereas Rome wanted a Gods of war. Rome won and wrote Jesus up their way.

You will note that the Eastern custom was to seek wisdom while all Rome wanted was obedience.

The stupid are so much easier to lead. They do not question.

Regards
DL

The problem with a Jewish origin is that there is nothing to point to. We find Christian gnostic texts before Jewish ones. Jews are notorious book burners but since you're pretending to be a big fan of the brotherhood that's probably not something you want to discuss.

The Kabbalah influencing Christianity is another problem as that probably didn't get going before like 1000 CE or so.

Scholars dispute whether the term "kabbalah" originated with the Jewish philosopher Solomon ibn Gabirol (1021–1058) or with the 13th-century Spanish kabbalist Bahya ben Asher.

It's possible you could point to Merkabah_mysticism which is prior to Kabbalah.

When these images were combined with an actual mystical experiential motif of individual ascent (paradoxically called "descent" in most texts, Yordei Merkabah, "descenders of the chariot", perhaps describing inward contemplation) and union is not precisely known. By inference, contemporary historians of Jewish mysticism usually date this development to the third century CE. Again, there is a significant dispute among historians over whether these ascent and unitive themes were the result of some foreign, usually Gnostic, influence, or a natural progression of religious dynamics within rabbinic Judaism.

Jewish Gnosticism, Merkabah Mysticism, and Talmudic Tradition by Gershom Scholem http://www.amazon.com/Gnosticism-Merkab ... 0873341503

Gnosticism, a religious movement that believed in mystical esotericism for the elect derived from illumination and the acquisition of the knowledge of heavenly things, now seems to have been close to the very core of Judaism in Roman Palestine and according to Scholem must be ascribed to either the Tannaitic or the early Amoraic period. Did the differentiation of the highest God and Demiurge, supposedly God of Israel, preceeded the rise of Christianity and possibly served as a point of departure for certain Christian heresies?

Maybe a case can be made for gnosticism to come from Merkabah Mysticism but I doubt if a convincing one can be elucidated by someone who thinks this is Kabbalah.

Once you start talking about a messiah, how much nuttier can things get, but I don't think we see anything gnostic before the common era.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Myths can certainly get nutty. Especially Gnostic myths.

I do not agree that looking to the old Jewish tradition as a dead end. For me, it leads to the real original myths, so to speak, that came from Sumer and Egypt.

I agree with your last. That is why the Gnostic messiah is a teacher and not really a savior. There is nothing to be saved from when you are a Gnostic Christian and Universalist. Our God would never condemn any of his precious souls.

Christians go to hell but Gnostic Christians are all saved as we are never condemned.

Regards
DL

[beowulf]

Look again for the first time. To the religious right, women sit at the back of the bus and the gays walk.

Regards
DL

What is a Gnostic Christian?

Perhaps the only moral form of a Christian.

We do not believe in human sacrifice or punishing the innocent6 instead of the guilty as the Christians do with their notions of vicarious redemption. Not Jesus the Christian scapegoat and whipping boy.

No two Gnostics will agree on everything but this link shows a general belief system.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

You need not be a Gnostic to internalize the myths you might believe in. It is the Gnostic method of seeking that is enlightening and not the particular myth you prefer. All the Gods are are heroes of 1,000 faces.

Regards
DL

Is that what Gnostic Christians are not?


This is 'elevation', the rest is misery:

Christianity is the highest possible elevation of man that was barely hinted at in the Garden of Eden by some vague allusion to a 'knowledgeable tree'.

Christianity is the victory over the bully that kicked Eve out of Eden and punished her with labour pains.

Christianity has killed god--no other religion has been so honoured.

It has replaced the old gardener with a man-god

It has made a poor Jewish woman Queen of Heaven and Mother of God

The new human god has taken a human wife and elevated her to the rank of Goddess.

The human god abdicated in favour of his Immaculate Spouse who treats her father-in-law as a monkey
...
No other religion has defeated the powers of heaven as Christianity has.

Gnostic Christians are little children

[Gnostic Bishop]

Indeed. That is what we think as well. Jesus said that one must have the heart of a child to know heaven and God.

You might want to get off your idiot adult mode and try it out.

Regards
DL

[beowulf]

Indeed. That is what we think as well. Jesus said that one must have the heart of a child to know heaven and God.

You might want to get off your idiot adult mode and try it out.

Regards
DL

He said the mind of a child.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Indeed. That is what we think as well. Jesus said that one must have the heart of a child to know heaven and God.

You might want to get off your idiot adult mode and try it out.

Regards
DL

He said the mind of a child.

Exactly where the laws of God are written.

Knowing the words does not mean that you understand what they meant to the writer.

Regards
DL