Question about the two evenings

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
beowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by beowulf »

semiopen wrote:The Last Supper & Passover: Overlooking the Obvious?
http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/2013/coo378022.shtml
The longstanding question of whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal may be resolved by an overlooked possibility: that Mark tried to transform an ordinary meal into a Passover observance by fashioning and inserting a single paragraph between (what we identify as) 14:11 and 17. The proposed insertion revised the time-line of the surrounding original tradition that Jesus was to be arrested before Passover ("not during the feast"). Mark neglected, however, to explain what transpired to thwart that plan. Indeed, five to seven anomalies generated by Mark's proposed insertion vanish simultaneously when, reversing Mark's apparent procedure, we remove his offending paragraph. Thereby the Last Supper reverts to its originally presented, and intended, time-line: that of an ordinary meal.
I guess there is a pretty good chance that Yoshke wasn't tried and executed during passover. Maybe this is why it's hard to have a rational discussion with Christians.

A footnote about John -
John chose to present Jesus’ death as coincident with that of the paschal lamb. Since the lamb had to die before the Passover meal, John had to set the Passover meal on Friday night, after Jesus’ death that previous afternoon. Cf. John 19:36 with Exod 12:46; Num 9:12; Ps 34:20(21). Paul likewise employed “paschal lamb” imagery with reference to Jesus (1 Cor 5:7).
None of this is worth mentioning in the OP?

Instead we get a crack about the Rabbis
even the rabbis have pondered about it and were trying somehow to make the best of it.
It turns out that there isn't a clear word for afternoon in Hebrew and the Rabbis simply explained why בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם means afternoon.
Professor Cook is a very interesting writer and one of my very few favourites. I cited from one of his books , Modern Jews Engage the New Testament, in this thread:
Professor Cook writes in his book Modern Jews Engage:
Christianity, still deeply bonded to Judaism, accepted and based itself on the Jewish scriptures...Replicating Judaism’s synagogue structure and its networking enabled Christianity to offer a cohesiveness that pagan religions (commonly organized as local enclaves) could not match.

Moreover, Judaism at this point in its history, was modelling a creative and successful missionary style that also allowed for attracting and accepting in a kind of secondary status, Gentiles whom it styled “God-fearers”. These shared the faith, the worship and the ethical commitment of Judaism but were not obliged to adult male circumcision or to full compliance with the dietary laws, and thus were not full converts.

When Christianity emerged, however, it promised Gentiles acceptance as full members while allowing them to bypass the barriers of Jewish dietary laws and circumcision. God-fearers became key agents in publicizing Christianity’s appeal among the pagans.
Professor Rabbi Michael J. Cook
Modern Jews Engage the New Testament
Jewish Lights Publishing Woodstock, Vermont, 2008
Pages 38ff
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=97



In the book Modern Jews Engage the New Testament in chapters 10 ,11. and 12 , he treats the reader to an excellent analysis of the passion narrative found in the gospel of Mark .
I have enjoyed reading your post. :)
Mental flatliner
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 9:50 am

Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by Mental flatliner »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:I would like to know a little more about the "two evenings" of the jewish day in the time of the NT. Can anyone recommend a good article or a good book on this topic? I've read a little about it online. It seems that even the rabbis have pondered about it and were trying somehow to make the best of it. Is this impression correct? :confusedsmiley:
I don't think you're going to get any kind of clear answer. The Roman Period is nearly devoid of sources, not just for giving context to the first decades of Christianity but for history in general in the area of Judea. Even Josephus breezes past 20-40 AD as if nothing happened, departing from his usual unwarranted long-winded treatises on royal and imperial soap operas.

The only real source for Roman Period Passover is the Mishnah, compiled about 135 AD from what were oral traditions up to that point, and there isn't a lot to shed light on your question.

Of course I'll give it a shot anyway...

Based on what I've read (for Passover I read only Jewish sources--I don't trust anyone else), the Jews have always celebrated Passover just after the first full moon after the spring equinox. Even when their new year changed, the location of Passover in the seasons never changed.

The exact date of Passover was based on the exact date of the new year (it had to be 14 days later). During the Temple Period, the priests made an announcement of the new moon and sent out runners declaring it to Jewish communities around the area (for example as far north as Antioch) so that all Jews could celebrate the Passover on exactly the same day.

10 days into the new year, the lamb was selected.
14 days into the new year, the homes were cleansed of leaven and the redemption of the firstborn began.

At a time when there were no atomic clocks, days began when the sun set and the moon rose. So the "Holy Convocation" (the Passover Sabbath) had to begin at full dark. Work performed before the sun had fully set was not convictable. Work after was.

15 days into the new year, after dusk, the homes were locked and the people were required to stay indoors until the sun rose the next morning, when the remainder of the Passover lamb had to be burned. That day began the "omer count", the 49 days to Pentecost.

(During the Roman Period, the authorities made a proclamation that Jews living in Asia Minor and Egypt were allowed to eat the Seder one day late due to the difficulty of getting the runners all the way there in time to proclaim the exact day of the new year. To this day, Jews still observe two seders and an 8-day Passover rather than 1 seder and a 7-day, since the ruling was made for the sake of the Diaspora, and Jews are still in Diaspora.)
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