Question about the two evenings

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Question about the two evenings

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

I would like to know a little more about the "two evenings" of the jewish day in the time of the NT. Can anyone recommend a good article or a good book on this topic? I've read a little about it online. It seems that even the rabbis have pondered about it and were trying somehow to make the best of it. Is this impression correct? :confusedsmiley:
semiopen
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by semiopen »

I think this has a different meaning for Christians, based on something about the crucifixion. Presumably that is related to "the best of it."

If I refer to a bible verse, I usually mention what the verse is.

This is Exodus 12:6
and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.- JPS
בֵּין הָעַרְבָּיִם

is usually translated "at dusk" as in the old JPS.

http://biblehub.com/exodus/12-6.htm

Even most Christian translations more or less agree with this.

The Hebrew, as usual, isn't clear to me. Bain is Strong's 996 usually means "at" I think; seems possible it could mean "between." Arbayim is Strong's 6153 for Erev which means evening. The im in Arbayim is a plural, but I don't think this can be properly translated as two. The JPS translation looks right to me.

The actual lamb law in Judaism is also mystifying to me.

My Rabbi claims that we don't eat the lamb anymore because of the loss of the temple, but in the days of the temple, it would be eaten at midnight. This sounds like Talmudic BS, but that might imply they consider the phrase to mean midnight. The sages weren't noted for their knowledge of Hebrew.

The Samaritans "still" slaughter lambs on Mt Gerizim - http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-e ... m-1.357579

I have to do more research but wanted to make an initial response.

Is the Christian understanding of this so great? If there is a disagreement between Christian and Jewish interpretation, the Christian one is usually more silly.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Thank you semiopen

I have found the following

1. historical practice (slaughter of the lambs) according to Josephus (Bell 6,9,3): 2 pm - 5 pm

2. historical interpretations
- dusk, in the evening (probably the earliest meaning)
- toward the evening (LXX)
- between the evenings

the meaning of „between the evenings“

- from noon (first evening) to sunset (second evening)
Beth Shammai, Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Jehoschua, Ben Bathyra, Rabbi Jehoschua ben Levi

- from the beginning of the 14. Nisan (evening of the 13. Nisan – first evening) to the evening of the 14. Nisan (second evening)
Chananja ben Jehuda

- from dusk to nightfall

I try to understand some temporal terms in the gospels and a little bit background. Some scholars are of the view that the evangelists refer sometimes to the first evening (after noon) and at other times to the second (after sunset – a new jewish day), for example Mark 1:32 - second evening; Mark 4:35 - first evening
semiopen
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by semiopen »

Does Josephus mention whether the lambs were slaughtered at the temple?

Passover_sacrifice
The killing took place in the court of the Temple at Jerusalem, and might be performed by a layman, although the blood had to be caught by a priest, and rows of priests with gold or silver cups in their hands stood in line from the Temple court to the altar, where the blood was sprinkled.
There are technical issues with the supposedly large amount of people/lambs etc.
In 2007, a group of rabbis led by Adin Steinsalz and supported by the Temple Mount Faithful and the New Sanhedrin Council identified a Kohen who was a butcher, made plans for conducting a passover sacrifice on the Temple Mount, and petitioned the Israeli High Court of Justice for permission.
This was pretty famous, it suggests that the existence of the temple is not required.
semiopen
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by semiopen »

How many Lambs slain at Passover?
How many Lambs slain in the Temple? http://www.keithhunt.com/Lambmany.html

Josephus apparently said the lambs were slaughtered in the temple, but this apparently violates the Santa Claus hypothesis - how fast does Santa have to travel to give everybody presents on Xmas.

My theory is that if Jews and Christians disagree on something, the Jews are always right. However if they agree on something, they are both wrong.

Keith Hunt seems to agree with the technical problems I mentioned about slaughtering a lot of lambs in a limited time.
JOSEPHUS informs us that the syrian Governor Cestius Gallus requested the high priest to take a census of Jerusalem to
convince Nero of the importance of the city and of the Jewish nation. The method used by the high priest was to COUNT
the NUMBER of lambs SLAIN at Passover, namely, 256,500. Then he multiplied that number by 10, the average number of persons
served by each lamb. At the LOWEST computation of TEN person per lamb, this would give a population of 2,565,000 or, as
Josephus himself puts it, 2, 700, 200 persons (Josephus, Jewish Wars 6, 9, 3). On an earlier occasion, Josephus computed the
number of Jews present in Jerusalem at Passover to be not fewer than 3,000,000 (Ibid., 2, 14, 3).
He then goes on to demonstrate the issues -
Since a cubit corresponds to about 20 inches, each court was approximately 225 feet long and 18 feet wide. Allowing 2 1/2
feet per person, the Court of Israel could accommodate at MOST a HUNDRED Jews at a time up shoulder to shoulder with their lambs.

To estimate how long it would take for a hundred Jews to sacrifice their paschal lambs in the Temple Court, one must
understand the elaborate ritual that was followed...
Being too lazy to figure all this out on my own, I just figured that if they took care of one lamb per second, they could do 3600 per hour and for the 3 hours they could do 10,800. Of course, they couldn't do anywhere near 1 per second.

My friend Outhouse on FRDB is an expert in this and argues tirelessly that a shitload of Jews came to Jerusalem on Passover despite the obvious logistical problems. Surprisingly he is quite reasonable in many other areas.

Probably some Jews came to Jerusalem for Passover, but the numbers seem totally off. Maybe a few lambs were slaughtered in the Temple for big shots, but the whole thing from both a Christian and Jewish view point, not to mention our historical understanding, seems totally incoherent.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

semiopen wrote:
Being too lazy to figure all this out on my own, I just figured that if they took care of one lamb per second, they could do 3600 per hour and for the 3 hours they could do 10,800. Of course, they couldn't do anywhere near 1 per second.
...
Probably some Jews came to Jerusalem for Passover, but the numbers seem totally off. Maybe a few lambs were slaughtered in the Temple for big shots, but the whole thing from both a Christian and Jewish view point, not to mention our historical understanding, seems totally incoherent.
:mrgreen:

I have checked the informations and I've done some math. It's all right!

I have stood firmly in the belief that at least these Jewish stories are true :tombstone:
semiopen
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by semiopen »

Regarding the key phrase בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם (bain haarbayim), we find this eleven times in the Pentateuch.

For example -
שָׁמַ֗עְתִּי אֶת־תְּלוּנֹּת֮ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ דַּבֵּ֙ר אֲלֵהֶ֜ם לֵאמֹ֗ר בֵּ֤ין הָֽעַרְבַּ֙יִם֙ תֹּאכְל֣וּ בָשָׂ֔ר וּבַבֹּ֖קֶר תִּשְׂבְּעוּ־לָ֑חֶם וִֽידַעְתֶּ֕ם כִּ֛י אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃

"I have heard the grumbling of the Israelites. Speak to them and say: By evening you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall have your fill of bread; and you shall know that I the LORD am your God." (Exo 16:12 TNK)

אֶת־הַכֶּ֥בֶשׂ אֶחָ֖ד תַּעֲשֶׂ֣ה בַבֹּ֑קֶר וְאֵת֙ הַכֶּ֣בֶשׂ הַשֵּׁנִ֔י תַּעֲשֶׂ֖ה בֵּ֥ין הָֽעַרְבָּֽיִם׃

You shall offer one lamb in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. (Num 28:4 TNK)

The previous verse is important to understand this -

וְאָמַרְתָּ֣ לָהֶ֔ם זֶ֚ה הָֽאִשֶּׁ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר תַּקְרִ֖יבוּ לַיהוָ֑ה כְּבָשִׂ֙ים בְּנֵֽי־שָׁנָ֧ה תְמִימִ֛ם שְׁנַ֥יִם לַיּ֖וֹם עֹלָ֥ה תָמִֽיד׃

Say to them: These are the offerings by fire that you are to present to the LORD: As a regular burnt offering every day, two yearling lambs without blemish. (Num 28:3 TNK)

This is a link from yrm, they seem a little crazy but they discuss Bain haarbayim.

http://yrm.org/keeping_passover_proper_time.htm

Discussing Numbers 28:4 -
Both lambs were to be offered on the same day. Some say that this proves that "between the evenings" is before sunset, because at sunset one day ends and another day begins.

This argument also lacks definitive evidence that "between the evenings" refers to midafternoon. Scripturally, at sunset one day ends and another day begins. If a lamb was offered at the start of the day after the sun set (ben ha arbayim), and the other lamb was offered the following morning of that same day, both would be offered the same day. See Exodus 29:41 and Numbers 28:4, 8 for additional reference to the daily sacrifices.
I think we can translate "some people" to mean "sane people." The Hebrew for Num 28:4 says אֶת־הַכֶּ֥בֶשׂ אֶחָ֖ד literally means the first lamb (offered in the morning) and then says וְאֵת֙ הַכֶּ֣בֶשׂ הַשֵּׁנִ֔י which literally means and the second lamb (offered in the afternoon/dusk/twilight etc).

The second paragraph quoted is absolutely incoherent. Bain Haarbayim has to mean before nightfall. Nonetheless, at least they are trying to discuss things.
semiopen
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by semiopen »

The OP seems to be inexact when it refers to "the two evenings."

This wound up in Pesachim 58a in the Talmud

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Pesachim.pdf
MISHNAH. THE [AFTERNOON] TAMID1 IS SLAUGHTERED AT EIGHT AND A HALF
HOURS2 AND IS OFFERED AT NINE AND A HALF HOURS.3 ON THE EVE OF PASSOVER4
IT IS SLAUGHTERED AT SEVEN AND A HALF HOURS AND OFFERED AT EIGHT AND A
HALF HOURS, WHETHER IT IS A WEEKDAY OR THE SABBATH. IF THE EVE OF
PASSOVER FELL, ON SABBATH EVE [FRIDAY], IT IS SLAUGHTERED AT SIX AND A
HALF HOURS AND OFFERED AT SEVEN AND A HALF HOURS, AND THE PASSOVER
OFFERING AFTER IT.5

GEMARA. Whence do we know it? — Said R. Joshua b. Levi, Because Scripture saith, The one
lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer between the two evenings:6
insert7 it between the two ‘evenings’, [which gives] two and a half hours before and two and a half
hours after8 and one hour for its preparation.9
(1) The daily burnt-offering: one was brought every morning and another every afternoon. Num. XXVIII, 4.
(2) The day being counted from sunrise to sunset, i.e., about six a.m. to six p.m.
(3) The sacrificial ceremonies took an hour.
(4) The Heb. is in the plural: on the eves of Passovers.
(5) When the eve of Passover falls on a Friday, time must be left for roasting the Passover offering before the Sabbath
commences; hence the earlier hour of the tamid.
(6) Ibid. Literal translation. ‘Evening’ (crg ‘ereb) is defined as the whole afternoon until nightfall.
(7) Lit., ‘divide’.
(8) Lit., ‘here’ . . .’there’.
(9) Thus the ‘two evenings’ are from midday (= six) until eight and a half hours, and from nine and a half hours until
nightfall (= twelve)
.

The idea here is that the slaughter would not be kosher if it was done in the morning - before noon. It would be kosher anytime after noon and before nightfall, but would not be kosher after nightfall.

We might argue about various details, but this seems inarguable.

I can find no academic attention to this except for some criticism of Bishop John_Colenso in the late 19th century, where there are numerous references to "between the days" in the various "refutations" on google books.

I don't understand what the Christian position is except the claim that Yoshke was crucified in the afternoon (and died before nightfall) during passover. They also seem to be saying that it wasn't the first day. All this seems reasonable in that it is consistent with the tale. Then there is the usual added claim by the more deranged commentators that somehow this was foretold in Exodus because of the similar time.
semiopen
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by semiopen »

The Last Supper & Passover: Overlooking the Obvious?
http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/2013/coo378022.shtml
The longstanding question of whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal may be resolved by an overlooked possibility: that Mark tried to transform an ordinary meal into a Passover observance by fashioning and inserting a single paragraph between (what we identify as) 14:11 and 17. The proposed insertion revised the time-line of the surrounding original tradition that Jesus was to be arrested before Passover ("not during the feast"). Mark neglected, however, to explain what transpired to thwart that plan. Indeed, five to seven anomalies generated by Mark's proposed insertion vanish simultaneously when, reversing Mark's apparent procedure, we remove his offending paragraph. Thereby the Last Supper reverts to its originally presented, and intended, time-line: that of an ordinary meal.
I guess there is a pretty good chance that Yoshke wasn't tried and executed during passover. Maybe this is why it's hard to have a rational discussion with Christians.

A footnote about John -
John chose to present Jesus’ death as coincident with that of the paschal lamb. Since the lamb had to die before the Passover meal, John had to set the Passover meal on Friday night, after Jesus’ death that previous afternoon. Cf. John 19:36 with Exod 12:46; Num 9:12; Ps 34:20(21). Paul likewise employed “paschal lamb” imagery with reference to Jesus (1 Cor 5:7).
None of this is worth mentioning in the OP?

Instead we get a crack about the Rabbis
even the rabbis have pondered about it and were trying somehow to make the best of it.
It turns out that there isn't a clear word for afternoon in Hebrew and the Rabbis simply explained why בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם means afternoon.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Question about the two evenings

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

semiopen wrote:The Last Supper & Passover: Overlooking the Obvious?
http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/2013/coo378022.shtml
The longstanding question of whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal may be resolved by an overlooked possibility: that Mark tried to transform an ordinary meal into a Passover observance by fashioning and inserting a single paragraph between (what we identify as) 14:11 and 17. The proposed insertion revised the time-line of the surrounding original tradition that Jesus was to be arrested before Passover ("not during the feast")...
Why, then — and surely we are entitled to know — has Mark either neglected to tell us what problem ensued or to reconcile these two conflicting chronologies in some other way?
It starts at Mark 1 that a legion of crazy things happen in GMark and Mark explained absolutely nothing about the "why" and "how". :mrgreen:
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