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Re: Sacrifices without a temple and the date of pseudo-Philo (for John2).

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:26 pm
by John2
Ben,

I need to give what you've said (and cited) more consideration, but I wanted to clarify my question "Could Pseudo-Philo simply be repeating what the OT says in his rewrite of it and not meaning it as a reference to his own time?"

I didn't mean "what the OT says" in the passage in question necessarily (though you have now pointed out that this isn't the case), but in general and "not slavishly" (as you put it). In other words, could he just be mimicking the style of the OT?

Re: Sacrifices without a temple and the date of pseudo-Philo (for John2).

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:00 am
by semiopen
The Sages were in between a rock and a hard place with the temple and Xianity. They couldn't very well say sacrifices were stupid without acknowledging some kind of debt to the Xians. They came up with a coming messiah, as absurd as that concept is, and the third temple idiocy. At least Judaism survived and its not like much of the other crap made that much sense anyway. The cool thing is that God is one, which is at least mathematically tenable.

If there was a group of traditional Aztecs or Incas that still practiced human sacrifice we wouldn't be expected to be so understanding. Human sacrifice is something a vegetarian could participate in, as typically, the offering wasn't eaten by participants. The indigenous American civilizations weren't dumb enough to sacrifice animals in their temples.

Re: Sacrifices without a temple and the date of pseudo-Philo (for John2).

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:12 pm
by John2
If birds were indeed the normal offering, that makes sense because of the technical difficulties of transporting the bigger animals. Certainly temple sacrifice is not an efficient method of food distribution.
Human sacrifice is something a vegetarian could participate in, as typically, the offering wasn't eaten by participants. The indigenous American civilizations weren't dumb enough to sacrifice animals in their temples.

Animal Sacrifice Powered Ancient Jerusalem's Economy ...

The study shows that there is a major interprovincial market that enables the transfer of vast numbers of animals that are used for sacrifice and feasting in Jerusalem during that time period," said study co-author Gideon Hartman, a researcher at the University of Connecticut.

The finding, published in the September issue of the Journal of Archaeological Science, confirms visions of the temple depicted in historical Jewish texts and suggests the economic heart of the city was its slaughtering operation ...

A few years ago, archaeologists unearthed a massive dump on the outskirts of the old walled city of Jerusalem. Dating revealed the dump was used between the start of King Herod's reign in 37 B.C. and the Great Revolt in A.D. 66.

Whereas most city dumps contain animal bones, this one contained an unusually large proportion of them for an agricultural society ...

The study found that many of the animals found in the city dump came from rural desert regions hundreds of miles away, such as Arabia or Transjordan.

The discovery bolsters the notion that Jerusalem was supported by a massive economy of pilgrims who brought animals for slaughter.


https://www.livescience.com/39307-jerus ... found.html


Archaeologists investigating the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán in Mexico have discovered that more than 400 animal species were systematically deposited there as offerings to the gods. According to Mexico’s National Institute of Anthropology and History, the animals were found in 60 ritual burials, dating from 1440 to 1520, located within the Sacred Precinct, outside the Templo Mayor. The assortment of species—ranging from big cats and eagles to crocodiles and shellfish—were dedicated to the Aztec gods Tlaloc and Huitzilopochtli, whose twin shrines stood atop the temple. While mollusks and fish comprise the majority of the specimens, the collection is highlighted by 13 pumas, two jaguars, and six wolves. There is evidence the Aztecs practiced a form of taxidermy to ensure the more important animal offerings maintained their shape and beauty. The finds demonstrate that the Aztecs of Tenochtitlán participated in broad exchange systems, as many of the specimens were not local, but were acquired through trade or tribute. These included fauna from tropical rain forests, including jaguars, quetzals, crocodiles, and snakes, and many species of fish and mollusks imported from reefs in the Atlantic Ocean, more than 100 miles away.


https://www.archaeology.org/issues/103- ... -sacrifice


In addition to slicing out the hearts of victims and spilling their blood on the temple altar, it’s believed that the Aztecs also practiced a form of ritual cannibalism. The victim’s bodies, after being relieved of their heads, were likely gifted to nobleman and other distinguished community members. Sixteenth-century illustrations depict body parts being cooked in large pots and archeologists have identified telltale butcher marks on the bones of human remains in Aztec sites around Mexico City.

While it was long theorized that Aztecs only engaged in ritual cannibalism during times of famine, another explanation is that consuming the flesh of a person offered to the gods was like communing with the gods, themselves. As off-putting as it sounds, Verano says that ritual cannibalism most likely existed among the Aztecs and would have been considered not only normal, but a great honor.


https://www.history.com/news/aztec-huma ... e-religion

Re: Sacrifices without a temple and the date of pseudo-Philo (for John2).

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:08 am
by semiopen
John2 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:12 pm

A few years ago, archaeologists unearthed a massive dump on the outskirts of the old walled city of Jerusalem. Dating revealed the dump was used between the start of King Herod's reign in 37 B.C. and the Great Revolt in A.D. 66.
A massive dump that was used for 30 years? Funny they haven't found a more massive dump that was used for 400 years. Those nasty natives probably built a mosque on the really nice massive garbage dump.

In any case, it is hard to believe that they ate the birds. A vegetarian can participate in ritual sacrifice with a clean conscience.

Re: Sacrifices without a temple and the date of pseudo-Philo (for John2).

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:41 am
by John2
semiopen wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:08 am
A vegetarian can participate in ritual sacrifice with a clean conscience.

I still wouldn't do it though because I don't see it as being only a matter of consuming animals but also slaughtering and butchering them. And in the big picture, I don't see any difference between where people do those things, what they wear when they do it, or what thoughts and beliefs they have when they do it. I see sacrifice as being equally as "dumb" as secular slaughtering, butchering and consumption of animals (though I prefer to use the word macabre) and am only interested in it as a subject because it forms a large part of the Bible and related writings and is consequently the subject of this thread.

Re: Sacrifices without a temple and the date of pseudo-Philo (for John2).

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:12 am
by John2
Ben,

In the big picture regarding pseudo-Philo's "even unto this day," while it wouldn't be "satisfying" either, I suppose if it could be put on the scale with M. Eduyot 8:6 and the archeological evidence that Magness mentions then I wouldn't have any issue with it.

Re: Sacrifices without a temple and the date of pseudo-Philo (for John2).

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:23 am
by Ben C. Smith
John2 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:12 am
Ben,

In the big picture regarding pseudo-Philo's "even unto this day," while it wouldn't be "satisfying" either, I suppose if it could be put on the scale with M. Eduyot 8:6 and the archeological evidence that Magness mentions then I wouldn't have any issue with it.
Obviously this is assuming that pseudo-Philo postdates 70. The demonstration for this is not totally airtight.