Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
beowulf
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Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by beowulf »

Yes, It is my question, but it is not rhetorical. The Eastern church still uses the Septuagint .Christianity was based on the Septuagint .

Christianity and Judaism are two completely different religions. Christianity should the use Septuagint as their scripture , and Judaism is welcome to use the later MT.

This arrangement is good for Christians and for Judaism and it would replicate the independent status that the Noble Quran enjoys among the religions of the book.


Three holy books.One for each religion: the Septuagint for Christians, the MT for Judaism and the Quran for Muslims; each religion is free to believe the holy writ without having to justify to the other religions and without the risk of causing offence.
beowulf
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Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by beowulf »

DCHindley wrote:beo,

I don't own a copy of Schiffman's book, but I am going to guess that the rhetorical question "Should we be using English translations of the Greek Bible , instead of the modified masoretic versions of around the eighth century?" is yours and not Schiffman's.

There's a book out, The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible (I think), that translates the major variants in the biblical books found near Qumran. From what I understand, among the various DSS scrolls or fragments have been found of all the books of the Hebrew Bible except Esther (my memory may be faulty, as I am home sick today and fairly miserable). Some of them are found in multiple discreet copies while others in maybe one copy or a passage cited by one of the "sectarian" texts, such as manuals of conduct, apocalypses and other revelations. While a few fragments from Old Greek translations of the books of the Law and maybe some of the Prophets also survive, I do not think that the "Greek additions" to Daniel or other "Deutero-canonical" books were found.

If you are investigating the worldview of early Christians, then the Lxx (5 books of the Law) and Old Greek translations, especially those preserved by Christians as part of the "Old Testament" (the Jews wouldn't have considered them "Old" as they did not accept the Christian's "New" testament), are key. There are citations of Judean scripture in the NT (which is 100% written in Greek) that seem to be closer to the Hebrew of the MT than to the Lxx or Old Greek transmitted as the Christian OT, but whether this indicates any familiarity on their part with Hebrew is subject to debate. They just might reflect the text of other Greek translations floating about at that time which have not been preserved whole.

If one is looking for a devotional reading, might as well use the English translations that use the Hebrew MT, as it is by far the best attested. Most of the translations, especially the most recent ones, will incorporate the variants found among the DSS if they seem to preserve a superior reading (and there are some good examples of this illustrated in the DSS Bible.) Some of the Catholic sponsored bibles, like the New American Bible, follow the Hebrew primarily but give more value to the readings from the Lxx and Old Greek than other (mainly Protestant sponsored) translations do.

Grendel (cough, wheeze) :goodmorning:
beowulf wrote:The bible seems to have been a very popular book in ancient times, attracting all sort of readers .The amazing thing is that still does ! Innovators are even now rewriting the NT with new unlikely heroes and ever more weird story lines.

Lawrence Schiffman writes that "as for the reading of the Torah, it is virtually certain that the Greek Bible texts, of which the Septuagint is an example, were in use ".He adds, " The Septuagint began to take shape in the third century BCE in response to the need of the Alexandrian Jewish community. By the second century the books of the latter prophets, then the former , were translated as well. Some of the Writings had also been translated by the beginning of the second century BCE ,whereas others were rendered into Greek only in the first century."

The Greek Bible texts were currently in use for some two centuries prior to the destruction of the Second Temple and it would have been the " God inspired" bible of the Diaspora for both Jews and Gentiles. The Septuagint is the most ancient translation of the most ancient Hebrew text.

Should we be using English translations of the Greek Bible , instead of the modified masoretic versions of around the eighth century?


Lawrence Schiffman :From Text to Tradition, A History of Second Temple and Rabbinic Judaism
http://www.amazon.com/Tradition-History ... 0881253723
Page 89, 92.
Thank you DH, I hope you are feeling better.

Yes, it is my question, I should have used the
tag instead of quotation marks.
Enjoy your morning coffee. :)
beowulf
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Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by beowulf »

Translation of Isaiah 7:14, numbers 1to 4 are copied from reputable confessional Jewish publishers
Isaiah 7:14
1 - Artscroll Stone Edition
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Behold the young woman will become pregnant and bear a son, and you will name him Immanuel.


2- Chabad
Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true


3- JPS Study Bible
14 Assuredly , my lord will give you a sign of his own accord. Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel


4-The Koren Jerusalem Bible
http://www.korenpub.com/EN/products/tan ... 9653010550
[[/b]has been recognized as the most authentic Hebrew/English Tanakh.[/b]
. Only this very one is to be trusted!!! ?
14 -- Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold; the young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and shall call his name 'Immanuel.

The Septuagint
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.
14 διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει, καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Εμμανουήλ·



Notes
a) A young Jewish young woman is to give birth - the wife of the speaker?
b) Rashi, chabad link,
And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth
c) Septuagint : could παρθένος mean virgin?
nili
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Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by nili »

beowulf wrote:Thank you, semiopen,

I have used the JPS Study Bible for years , but I did not include it in my list because the Stone Edition is much the same .

Bible translations are always confessional, ...
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How would this apply to, for example, the new JPS or the work of Alter?
beowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by beowulf »

nili wrote:
beowulf wrote:Thank you, semiopen,

I have used the JPS Study Bible for years , but I did not include it in my list because the Stone Edition is much the same .

Bible translations are always confessional, ...
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How would this apply to, for example, the new JPS or the work of Alter?
Oxford Dictionary: Definition of Confessional: Relating to confessions of faith or doctrinal systems.


I take the bible to be a religious book used to promote a particular understanding of god. Sutras suggest Buddhism, Vedas suggest Hinduism, the KJV suggest Protestants and so forth.
nili
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Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by nili »

beowulf wrote:
nili wrote:
beowulf wrote:Thank you, semiopen,

I have used the JPS Study Bible for years , but I did not include it in my list because the Stone Edition is much the same .

Bible translations are always confessional, ...
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How would this apply to, for example, the new JPS or the work of Alter?
Oxford Dictionary: Definition of Confessional: Relating to confessions of faith or doctrinal systems.


I take the bible to be a religious book used to promote a particular understanding of god. Sutras suggest Buddhism, Vedas suggest Hinduism, the KJV suggest Protestants and so forth.
And you claim that the NJPS committee and Berlin and Sarna and Alter and … are all engaging in confessions of faith? What role, if any, do you see played by scholarship in fields such as archaeology and philology?
nili
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by nili »

beowulf wrote:Three holy books.One for each religion: the Septuagint for Christians, the MT for Judaism and the Quran for Muslims; each religion is free to believe the holy writ without having to justify to the other religions and without the risk of causing offence.
This seems to be an over-simplification. For example, from the introduction to The New Oxford Annotated Bible; New Revised Standard Version With The Apocrypha (Fully Revised Fourth Edition), page xvi: "For the Old Testament the Committee has made use of the Biblica Hebraica Stuttgartensia (1977; ed. sec. emendata, 1983. This is the edition of the Hebrew and Aramaic text as current early in the Christian era and fixed by Jewish scholars (the "Masoretes") of the sixth to the ninth centuries."
beowulf
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Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by beowulf »

nili wrote:And you claim that the NJPS committee and Berlin and Sarna and Alter and … are all engaging in confessions of faith? What role, if any, do you see played by scholarship in fields such as archaeology and philology?
Please , don't do that again: I haven't mentioned any committee , nor have I mentioned any person.
The Bible, Koran, Vedas, Sutras,.. are the ones that speak for something or another in preference to something else.

For example:
I have a book in front of me. I look for the New Testament , but it is not there.
The front cover says :The Jewish Study Bible,
The front cover says : Tanakh Translation.
I conclude that it is not a Christian Bible .

Another example;
I have a book in front of me. I look for something, but I find the New Testament and the Old Testament
The front cover says : Catholic Study Bible
I conclude that it is not the Koran.
Last edited by beowulf on Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
beowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by beowulf »

nili wrote:
beowulf wrote:Three holy books.One for each religion: the Septuagint for Christians, the MT for Judaism and the Quran for Muslims; each religion is free to believe the holy writ without having to justify to the other religions and without the risk of causing offence.
This seems to be an over-simplification. For example, from the introduction to The New Oxford Annotated Bible; New Revised Standard Version With The Apocrypha (Fully Revised Fourth Edition), page xvi: "For the Old Testament the Committee has made use of the Biblica Hebraica Stuttgartensia (1977; ed. sec. emendata, 1983. This is the edition of the Hebrew and Aramaic text as current early in the Christian era and fixed by Jewish scholars (the "Masoretes") of the sixth to the ninth centuries."
Three Holy books is about having separate sacred scriptures.
nili
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep

Post by nili »

beowulf wrote:
nili wrote:And you claim that the NJPS committee and Berlin and Sarna and Alter and … are all engaging in confessions of faith? What role, if any, do you see played by scholarship in fields such as archaeology and philology?
Please , don't do that again: I haven't mention any committee , nor have I mentioned any person.
Perhaps I misunderstand you …


You asserted: "Bible translations are always confessional, …"
To clarify, you provided: "Oxford Dictionary: Definition of Confessional: Relating to confessions of faith or doctrinal systems."

From this I gathered that you claim all translations are confessions of faith or doctrinal systems. But translations are done by individuals alone or in committee. It seems reasonable to conclude that you are claiming that all translations are confessions of faith or doctrinal systems of the translators.

But there is another possibility. Some at least could reflect the best scholarship available. So perhaps you would answer my second question quoted above.
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