Asking information about some Hebrew scrolls

[pavlov_1989]

Hello people,

for quite some time I am possessing 8 Hebrew scroll pages, but I don't know anything about them. I contact You, because I am hoping that You can shed some light on their purpose, dating, origin and content. On this link https://www.dropbox.com/s/34tpp9or0g5md ... crolls.rar I send You a sample from three of them. Thanks in advance.

[semiopen]

I tried to download a free RAR extractor to read the download but it tried to make a few changes to my computer which my security app blocked.

This was enough to scare me off, but it was unlikely that I would have been able to read them anyway.

I noticed that the rar file had jpgs. Maybe a single jpg would be simpler to look at.

Otherwise you could simply take the pages to a local rabbi or college with a Jewish Studies department.

They're probably torah pages (you would see letters with no vowel marks etc) a rabbi with a congregation could probably tell at a glance.

PS - After thinking about this a little - I suspect the OP is dubious and the thread probably should be removed.

[DCHindley]

Hello people,

for quite some time I am possessing 8 Hebrew scroll pages, but I don't know anything about them. I contact You, because I am hoping that You can shed some light on their purpose, dating, origin and content. On this link https://www.dropbox.com/s/34tpp9or0g5md ... crolls.rar I send You a sample from three of them. Thanks in advance.

PKZip for Windows and I suppose WinZip will open RAR files. Because RAR files are almost exclusively used with Peer to Peer file transfer programs, perhaps the RAR file opener also tried to install one of the PtoP programs. I used to use them, but then one day my computer started crashing when I used them, so I uninstalled it.

Opening the RAR file (it passed a scan by Norton and so appears to be legit) has photos of three fragments of scrolls, multiple shots per fragment, Some are a single column some contain two.

First thing I can tell you is that all the pictures are upside down (oops)! I don't read Hebrew so what they are from is anyone's guess, but I found one contained part of Genesis 39:23 onwards.

It looks like maybe the rolls were cut up into sections. I saw some stitching marks where segments of parchment were sewn together to make the scroll, but in some fragments the text was cut between columns. They are clearly written on parchment and each row was scribed (a pointy thingy was drawn horizontally along a straight edge so that the lines of text, when written, wouldn't end up unevenly spaced). There were also similar scribed vertical lines to each side of each column.

These fragments are in too good of condition to have been found in caves or something. They may have come from a Genizah repository for worn out scrolls, but this would likely be from relatively modern times.

Nazi war plunder?

DCH

[Tenorikuma]

You should really take it to a nearby university with an archaeology department. They'll undoubtedly be happy to take a look and tell you how to preserve it if it's valuable.

[semiopen]

From DCH's description it seems like someone was practicing.

You can't throw away stuff with Hebrew on it so it probably wound up in a Geniza as DCH suggests.

As DCH confirms it's probably pages from a Torah, a Tikkun could be consulted to see if there is spacing in reasonable places. The speed of Rabbis is very impressive when they have to find a page in a Torah scroll. They do this by noting how wound up the thing is and then seeing the distinctive pattern of paragraphs, big letters, squiggly things etc which corresponds to the general area they are searching for.

The pages can't be that old because ordinarily they don't survive long without special care.

If we started a pool to guess the value, I'd go with zero (unless we allow negative numbers) It seems they are almost certainly worthless, it would be safe to throw them away except you're not supposed to, so it's better to take them to an Orthodox Rabbi (Chabad would be good) who will probably be able to identify them. After he tells you they are worthless you can leave them with him unless you think he is lying. He probably won't lie if he thinks you are Jewish, but it's not like he would be a connoisseur of fantastically valuable pages in Hebrew... like I said I'd bet some money that they are worthless.

[semiopen]

Just some more thoughts...

Basic Laws Regarding Torah Scrolls - http://www.keddem.org/PublicDocs/YKWork ... crolls.pdf

An authentic Sefer Torah is a mind-boggling masterpiece of labor and skill. Comprising between 62 and 84 sheets of
parchment-cured, tanned, scraped and prepared according to exacting Halachic specifications-and containing exactly
304,805 letters, the resulting handwritten scroll takes many months to complete.
An expert scribe carefully inks each letter with a feather quill, under the intricate calligraphic guidelines of Ktav
Ashurit (Ashurite Script). The sheets of parchment are then sewn together with sinews to form one long scroll

Before beginning to write a Torah scroll, the scribe must mark off the lines (scoring) on the parchment with slight
grooves. The utensil used for this purpose may not leave any coloring on the parchment. It is preferable that this
marking, too, be carried out with the intent to write a Torah scroll.

Maybe these explain the markings that DCH observed.

Since the pages are separate as opposed to being bound into a book. We can understand this by recalling [wiki]The_Fugitive_(1993_film)[/wiki].

Deputy Marshal Samuel Gerard: Oh, wow, gee whiz! Look here! [dangles a set of unshackled leg irons in front of the guard] You know, we're always fascinated when we find leg irons with no legs in them!

The only reasonable explanation for the separate pages is that there is a mistake on them that caused them to be declared non-kosher.

[DCHindley]

semi,

I did see holes that suggested that some of the pages had been sewn together at some time. The other ones were clearly columns that had been cut out, probably by whoever sold them to Pavlov_1989. There was also water damage, it looks like.

Where the seller got them I can only speculate, but it was probably not a "legit" source like an antiquities dealer. Maybe a synagogue destroyed or abandoned by war (think Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 1990s or Iraq in the 2010s), where a peacekeeper might have taken a few souvenirs. The dealer may also have had copies of Korans as well.

DCH

[semiopen]

I've been looking at this from a position of not knowing about a black market in Torah scroll pages coupled with my annoyance at myself for downloading that stupid free .rar reader.

In Torah Thefts, Perps of the Book Prey on People of the Book http://thebrooklynink.com/2010/09/08/14 ... -the-book/

A Torah scroll, also known as a sefer Torah, contains the five books of Moses, the Hebrew Bible. The text is hand-written on parchment made of animal hide. A Torah scribe can spend one year producing a scroll, and depending on his ability, a new scroll could cost between $40,000 and $50,000.

I just don't see individual pages being worth anything.

Though Torah theft is a relatively rare crime—New York City has seen only about one theft per year since 2008—each incident reminds local Jews of the 1980s and 1990s, when the crime reached epidemic proportions. From January to May of 1981, between 40 and 50 Torahs were swiped in the city. Then, beginning in 1992, 14 scrolls were taken from synagogues in three boroughs, as well as from the Jewish Theological Seminary and Mount Sinai Medical Center.

The black market for Torahs is far-reaching; in the ‘80s, Jewish leaders believed that stolen Torahs were being re-sold to synagogues worldwide, especially in Israel, that couldn’t afford the cost of commissioning new scrolls.

Stealing Torahs seems to be done only by Jews, who else is going to buy one. Oddly, I think if a non-Jew steals one a Jew can't buy it from him.

My ex Schul got a "Holocaust Torah" donated by someone which then went through a process of being restored while simultaneously asking the congregation for sums of money to finance it. This also pissed me off because I donated several hundred dollars under the guise of buying some letters or shit like that to honor my deceased parents when all it was was taking peoples money.

I looked up very old Torah scrolls and was surprised to see one dating back to the 13th century or so, but the dates quickly drop off.

A surprisingly interesting subject. Maybe taking the pages to a Jewish studies department at a local college makes sense, but then there is the real possibility of wasting a guy's time with garbage.

[austendw]

Hello people,

for quite some time I am possessing 8 Hebrew scroll pages, but I don't know anything about them. I contact You, because I am hoping that You can shed some light on their purpose, dating, origin and content. On this link https://www.dropbox.com/s/34tpp9or0g5md ... crolls.rar I send You a sample from three of them. Thanks in advance.

These parchment scroll sections contain the following texts from Genesis:

Scroll 1: Genesis 39:21-40:20 - a single column; the story of Joseph in prison with the butler and baker.
Scroll 2: Genesis 37:15-38:1;38:5-27 - two columns recounting the selling of Joseph and the story of Judah and Tamar, but as the top of the sheet has been cut away (presumably because it was damaged), there is a missing section.
Scroll 7: Genesis 29:23-30:8a; 30:16-35 - About the birth of Jacob's children and the business with Laban's & Jacob's flocks. Again, the top few lines have been cut away, presumably because they were damaged.

I presume these are segments of a Sefer Torah, which would have been stitched together to form the entire scroll. But clearly the top of the scroll was damaged and a few lines have been cut away.

[pavlov_1989]

Thank You for the information! Probably the best thing to do is to conntact somone local rabbi. He should know at best what to do with this scrolls.