Daniels 70 weeks made Simple

[Ged]

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Seventy weeks (70*7=490 yrs) are determined for your people and for your holy city ...

Know therefore and understand,that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ... (69*7=483 yrs)

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)

Dan 9:26,27 (N.K.J.Version, bracketed notes added)

[beowulf]

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Seventy weeks (70*7=490 yrs) are determined for your people and for your holy city ...

Know therefore and understand,that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ... (69*7=483 yrs)

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)

Dan 9:26,27 (N.K.J.Version, bracketed notes added)

Christianity doesn't need support from the old testament.
Marcion wanted to ditch the hysterical god of the old testament and he was right.

Daniel is a political pamphlet to keep up the fighting spirit of the Hasmonean empire builders. Daniel's god promised a superman that will bring idolaters under their dominion.

[Kris]

My Version:

Seventy weeks (70*7=490 yrs) are determined for your people and for your holy city ...

Know therefore and understand,that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ... (69*7=483 yrs)

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Onias) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Antiochus Troops) of the prince who is to come (Antiouchus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Titus never destroyed Jerusalem-- yes they wrecked it pretty bad, but it continued to exist as a city!). The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (The Prince-- Antoichous) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (Hey guess what-- there is documenation in Macabees that this exactly what Antiochus did) And on the wing of abominations (this is where you insert some apologetic bullshit, but is probably just stating that during this time) shall be one who makes desolate, (Antiochus desecrates the temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)

Dan 9:26,27 (N.K.J.Version, bracketed notes added)

So you totally ignored the fact that Paul--who has become the mouthpiece for christianity felt he had to offer sacrifices in Acts-- if they were such desolations as you say, why the hell did he not jump up and say NO? But, he offered these sacrifices. As well, Daniel 8 talks about the temple being reconsecrated at the end of all this horrible stuff-- but if we use your analogy of the temple being completely destroyed-- how could that happen. And don't try to say that Jesus is the new temple, because wouldn't that start half way through the last week, as you so strongly assert? But Daniel 8 says that it is after all the desolations have ended.

I prefer to follow John J Collins' assessment of Daniel, since he is a Yale Professor who has spent his life studying Daniel. I emailed him on this topic directly, and he stated that Daniel clearly applies to Antiochous' time-- and that the christian interpetations are bunk. But believe whatever you want. I am not interested in your opinions. I was asking those that choose to believe that Daniel is NOT about Jesus.

[spin]

If image is too wide for your screen please go here:

Seventy weeks (70*7=490 yrs) are determined for your people and for your holy city ...

Know therefore and understand,that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ... (69*7=483 yrs)

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)

Dan 9:26,27 (N.K.J.Version, bracketed notes added)

As you will not deal with the stupidity of starting with the wrong initial point and as your analysis is purely conclusion driven, you show no interest whatsoever in history. Yours is a purely apologetic dose of christian proselytizing. Why don't you take an honest look at the historical data in Ezra rather than simply trying to support your conclusion?

Then we come to the fact that there are three different figures mentioned in Dan 9:25-27, 1) the anointed prince who comes after seven weeks, the anointed one who comes after sixty-nine weeks and the prince who arrives around the same time. Christian apologetic mangles 9:25 and creates the silly notion of adding the seven weeks to the sixty-two in order to shift the anointed prince from after the seventh week to after the 69th.

25 “Know and understand this:

From [the time] the word going out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed prince [comes] [there will be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks [it will] be restored and rebuilt with street and trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two weeks an anointed one will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. Half the week he will make sacrifice and offering cease. And in their place will be an abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed end is poured out on him.

There is no reason for a reader of the text to assume that you should add the seven weeks and the sixty-two, except for the punctuation supplied by most christian translations. In reality the first duration (7 wks) belongs to the previous clause while the second (62 wks) belongs to the following clause.

From [the time] the word going out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed prince [comes] [there will be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks [it will] be restored and rebuilt with street and trench

Christians have to add them together in order to conflated the anointed prince and the anointed one. Otherwise they cannot subvert the prophecy for christian purposes. It's a shonky trick. To see just how shonky, can you answer what happened before the 62 weeks? The RSV and the NJPS tell you that was when the anointed prince appeared. Most Christian translations can't answer the question because they have lost the sense of the passage.

This is Daniel's timeline:

Decree — 7 weeks Anointed prince — 62 weeks Anointed one & prince — 1 week (2nd ½ week stoppage of sacrifices) end to the desolator

Not only is your starting point for the 490 weeks not reflective of the text of Ezra, but you have to pervert Daniel to invent a christian prophecy.

[Ged]

My Version:

Know therefore and understand,that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ... (69*7=483 yrs)

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Onias) shall be cut off,

As you will not deal with the stupidity of starting with the wrong initial point ...

Neither of you have given me a starting date or a count that I can examine. All you have done is criticise peripheral issues. Kris, you have given us a ending date (Onius) but you have not said who issued the decree. Spin, you have said (the second) Artaxerxes2 issued the decree, then an anointed one came after 49 years, but you haven't said who the anointed one was or what year he came?

My diagram provides a start, a terminus and the time in-between. Can you do the same please?

As for the issues you have raised, Ill deal with them one at a time after you present actual dates that stack up at both ends.

[spin]

My Version:

Know therefore and understand,that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ... (69*7=483 yrs)

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Onias) shall be cut off,

As you will not deal with the stupidity of starting with the wrong initial point ...

Neither of you have given me a starting date or a count that I can examine. All you have done is criticise peripheral issues. Kris, you have given us a ending date (Onius) but you have not said who issued the decree. Spin, you have said (the second) Artaxerxes2 issued the decree, then an anointed one came after 49 years, but you haven't said who the anointed one was or what year he came?

My diagram provides a start, a terminus and the time in-between. Can you do the same please?

As for the issues you have raised, Ill deal with them one at a time after you present actual dates that stack up at both ends.

You really want me to do your work for you. Your analysis is pure piffle. You can't make it fly, so you ask me to get it off the ground? Deal with the facts and forget the apologetics.

And stop confusing the anointed prince with the anointed one. Being anointed was the sign of a high priest and the first figure is required to be a ruler. The only person I know in biblical literature to fit the requirements is Zechariah's Yeshua after Zerubbabel had disappeared. In Zech 6:11 both crowns are placed on Yeshua's head, ie he became crowned not only high priest but also ruler. This was back in the day that the temple was to be rebuilt, which neatly fits the notion in Dan 9:25. The decree indicated is the decree, the one issued that guaranteed the rebuilding, the one under Cyrus.

As I have argued elsewhere here, the numbers are not to be trusted as the writers of Daniel have little understanding of the period in which Daniel was set.

Now please go back and respond to what I wrote in my previous post.

[Kris]

First seven weeks-- the Approximately 49 years of the exile that Jeremiah was a part of-- 7 weeks from Here to the high priests enthronement of Joshua (Cyrus as well) and ends right before Onias gets killed in the last week along with the abomination and desecration in the temple by Antiochius..

In your scenario--- you can't prove Ezra's dating and when Jesus lived and died. So, your dates aren't accurate just because. You have then on a chart.

And you didn't answer my questions about why Paul offered sacrifices in Acts. Or why the apostles still used the temple!!! And you didn't address the reconcecration of the temple. Lots of holes in your theory

Oh and wasn't the works supposed to end in Daniel shortly after this scroll or book was discovered? Oops.

[Ged]

Here is a table comparing our different views of how the 70 week prophecy is to be interpreted. Correct me if I haven't quoted you properly but it is the best as I can understand you both.

VIEW	DECREE	DATE	TERMINUS	DATE	YRS stated	YRS actual	ACCURACY
GED	Artaxerxes1	457bc	Messiahs ministry begins	27ad	483 yrs	483 yrs	exact years provided
KRIS	- ?	- ?	Onias murdered	171bc	483 yrs	- ?	insufficient information
SPIN	Cyrus	538bc	high priest joshua crowned	519bc	49 yrs?	19 years	less than half of required yrs

You are keen to badmouth the Christian interpretation but I have not seen a credible alternative to it. What you have offered as possible scenarios do not add up to the 'weeks' quoted and in your case Kris, you have not said who issued the decree? Perhaps you did on another thread. Can you tell me now?

As for the side issues that you have raised, Ill deal with them one at a time after you present your alternative dates that stack up at both ends. Thanks.

[Tenorikuma]

The decree of Ezra 7 has to be under Artaxerxes II, which dates it to c. 384 within the chronology of Ezra-Nehemiah. If you add 483 years to that, it takes you up to 100 CE.

(See my comment in the other thread about the chronological problems with Ezra-Nehemiah.)

[spin]

Here is a table comparing our different views of how the 70 week prophecy is to be interpreted. Correct me if I haven't quoted you properly but it is the best as I can understand you both.

VIEW	DECREE	DATE	TERMINUS	DATE	YRS stated	YRS actual	ACCURACY
GED	Artaxerxes1	457bc	Messiahs ministry begins	27ad	483 yrs	483 yrs	exact years provided
KRIS	- ?	- ?	Onias murdered	171bc	483 yrs	- ?	insufficient information
SPIN	Cyrus	538bc	high priest joshua crowned	519bc	49 yrs?	19 years	less than half of required yrs

You are keen to badmouth the Christian interpretation but I have not seen a credible alternative to it. What you have offered as possible scenarios do not add up to the 'weeks' quoted and in your case Kris, you have not said who issued the decree? Perhaps you did on another thread. Can you tell me now?

As for the side issues that you have raised, Ill deal with them one at a time after you present your alternative dates that stack up at both ends. Thanks.

You've got the process totally backward. You create a lie to allow you to pretend that your fake date relating to the wrong Persian king is OK because that allows you to cheat your way to a prophecy. Sorry, but you are peddling plain nonsense. Your table that mentions my view shows that either you didn't read it or you didn't understand it. You seem to have little interest in either history or textual analysis. You seem to be too busy with your religious interests.