Waheb in the Peshitta

[Reb Chaim HaQoton]

I was looking at an interlinear translation of the Bible with the original Hebrew, the Peshitta, and English (see http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/ot/Numbers.pdf ). In Numbers 21:14 it leaves the word והב untranslated as Waheb. In another website (see http://cal1.cn.huc.edu ) I found that the verse is rendered in the Peshitta thusly:
[quote]מטל הנא מתאמר בספר קרבוהֵי(רבים) דמריא܂ שלהביתא בעלעלא ובנחלא דארנון܂[/quote]
In light of this, it seems that the translation of the word Waheb is in fact "flame" (related to the Hebrew word שלהבת). What do you think?

[beowulf]

The translation of the Septuagint

NUMBERS / ΑΡΙΘΜΟΙ
Chapter 21

14 Therefore it is said in a book, A war of the Lord has set on fire Zoob, and the brooks of Arnon
14 διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ· πόλεμος τοῦ Κυρίου τὴν Ζωὸβ ἐφλόγιζε, καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους ᾿Αρνῶν,


http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... =4&page=21

PS. The Stone Edition of the Torah:
14 Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of Hashem:
" the gift of the Sea of Reeds , and the rivers of Arnon

The JPS , Jewish Study Bible translates
14 Therefore the Book of the Wars of the Lord speaks of (b)...
(b) The quotation that follows is a fragment; text and meaning are uncertain
Waheb in Sulphah and the wadis of the Arnon


The Catholic Study Bible says that Numbers 21:14 comes from " The Book of the Wars of the Lord", an ancient collection of Israelite songs now lost. and that the meaning is uncertain

The Oxford Annotated Bible says that the Book of the Wars of the Lord is an early nonbiblical work, perhaps poetic, from which the citation in vv, 14-15 was taken. Long poetic narratives are known from Ugarit ( Syria ) ca. 1400 BCE ..

The end

[spin]

At a guess I'd say the Syriac version cited in the OP reflects influence from the Greek. At the same time the Hebrew looks defective for the word in question has an accusative prefix, את־והב, without a verb in sight to govern it. This might reflect the fact that it is supposed to have been taken out of "the Book of the Wars of the Lord" and the prefix was preserved, but the NJPS shows that they have a problem with the text as is, with a footnote explaining that is a fragment with meaning uncertain. The flame notion is extremely hard to justify in the context.

[semiopen]

I agree with Spin.

The thing is placed in the 42 journeys (which in all probability is a later shell game) and is most likely a place name.

An interesting feature is the Book_of_the_Wars_of_the_Lord is part of the same verse. This has always struck me as anachronistic and weird. Wouldn't one expect YHWH to win these easily?

My guess is that the writer of this part stuck the Wars book in because he thought the reference was cool and mysterious. If it seems like a fragment, the most likely explanation seems to be that the writer deliberately made it seem that way.

[beowulf]

Another translation

21:14 al-ken ye'amar b'sefer milchamot HASHEM et-vahev b'sufa v'et-hanechalim arnon
Concerning this will be told in the Book of the Wars of HaShem, "I have given [you] at the Reeds [Sea] the valleys of Arnon."


http://orachchayim.blogspot.co.uk/2014/ ... hukat.html

[semiopen]

Another translation

21:14 al-ken ye'amar b'sefer milchamot HASHEM et-vahev b'sufa v'et-hanechalim arnon
Concerning this will be told in the Book of the Wars of HaShem, "I have given [you] at the Reeds [Sea] the valleys of Arnon."


http://orachchayim.blogspot.co.uk/2014/ ... hukat.html

I've been trying to figure out how I will reply to someone who points out that the 42 journeys I mentioned above are in Massey, not Chukkat, maybe I'll start a thread for that, I tried to count them and got more than 42.

I wanted to remark about using Jewish Translations. I think they are almost always better than Christian but its important to realize that the usual Jewish translation seems to be by the guy who edits the commentary. I have a copy of the Stone Chumash and the translation is ok but it is unclear who did it.

http://www.amazon.com/Chumash-Edition-T ... 1578191076

The entire Chumash, newly reset, in one beautiful volume with a new, contemporary English translation of the Torah, faithful to Rashi and the classic Rabbinic commentators, and an anthologized commentary by a team of scholars, under the editorship of Rabbi Nosson Scherman.

The team of scholars (whoever they were) seems to have been involved in leaving in and out pieces of Rashi's commentary. The translation they come up with seems to be one that is consistent with Rashi. As a known JPS slut, I have to point out that JPS had a large team of scholars working on the translation only.

I also have Ramban's five volume commentary on the Torah. Similar to the Stone Chumash with Rashi, the translator's task is to make the translation consistent with Ramban. For example, in the Joseph story Potiphar is called a Eunuch of Pharaoh instead of an Officer. I like what Ramban says, but the translation is like that because Ramban goes into a long riff on this topic.

In the actual text

From there they set out and encamped beyond the Arnon, that is, in the wilderness that extends from the territory of the Amorites. For the Arnon is the boundary of Moab, between Moab and the Amorites. (Num 21:13 TNK)

Therefore the Book of the Wars of the LORD speaks of "... Waheb in Suphah, and the wadis: the Arnon (Num 21:14 TNK)

the last part of 21:14 -

אֶת־וָהֵ֣ב בְּסוּפָ֔ה וְאֶת־הַנְּחָלִ֖ים אַרְנֽוֹן (Num 21:14 WTT) (Num 21:14 WTT)

Waheb in Suphah is pretty clear because of the bet. The translation you give above seems dubious. suphah means storm or tempest and they try to change it to Suph as in Yam_Suph. Maybe this "translation" has many excellent points from a theological standpoint but it almost certainly has no relation to what the original writer meant.

[beowulf]

The Chumash, The Stone Edition , Artscroll Series
Rabbi Nosson Sherman/ Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz ,General Editors
Mesorah Publication Ltd
Eleventh Edition, Twelve impression December 2009
ISBN 139780899060149
14 Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of Hashem:
" the gift of the Sea of Reeds , and the rivers of Arnon;
15 the outpouring of the rivers when it veered to dwell at Ar, and leaned against the border of Moab

Note to 14: the gift of the Sea of Reeds , and the rivers of Arnon
Moses likened two miracle to one another, implying that they were of comparable greatness. The first was the Splitting of the Sea, whose magnitude is well known. The second will be described further in the next verse.

Note to 15: the outpouring of the rivers
Rivers of blood signalled to Israel that God had performed a momentous miracle on their behalf. The Amorites had planned yo ambush the Israelite camp as it passed through a deep gorge near the Moabite border. The Amorites hid in caves over a narrow pass, ready to push large boulders down upon the Jews as they passed through helplessly.
Miraculously, the cliffs that formed the walls of the gorge moved together with stone outcroppings moving into the caves and crushing the hidden Amorites. All of this was unknown to the unsuspecting Israelites until they saw blood flowing down into the gorge.
End of the citation from the Stone Chumash.

In the given link , this passage says thus:

http://orachchayim.blogspot.co.uk/2014/ ... hukat.html

21:14 al-ken ye'amar b'sefer milchamot HASHEM et-vahev b'sufa v'et-hanechalim arnon
Concerning this will be told in the Book of the Wars of HaShem, "I have given [you] at the Reeds [Sea] the valleys of Arnon."
21:15 v'eshed hanechalim asher nata l'shevet ar v'nishan ligvul Moav
And the spillage in the valleys when it turned to dwell at Ar, and then leaned on the border of Moav.


The explanatory text accompanying those two verses say:

The following was the great miracle that G-d performed for the Benei Yisrael at the streams of Arnon. ... Miraculously, however, G-d prepared another route for the Benei Yisrael. Just as they were approaching the point of ambush, He uprooted the mountain on the Amori side and joined it to the moutain on the Moavi side. Its projections penetrated the cave openings, crushing and squashing the armies of the enemy trapped inside.... Then, however, the mountains returned to their original positions, it being G-d's will to reveal to His children what He had done for them. The well that accompanied the Benei Yisrael thereupon overflowed into the caves and, through the strong suction of the waters, drew forth human organs, heads and limbs. (BaMidbar Rabbah; Rashi; Bachya; Mizrachi)
End of the citation from the link provided above.

My very personal comment is as follows:
The Jews that translated the Torah into Greek some 2300 years ago chose to describe the slaughter of the hidden Amorites as,
14 Therefore it is said in a book, A war of the Lord has set on fire Zoob, and the brooks of Arnon
14 διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ• πόλεμος τοῦ Κυρίου τὴν Ζωὸβ ἐφλόγιζε, καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους ᾿Αρνῶν


Fire to signify the total annihilation of life and property , convey very well the terrible slaughter the took place there by the astonishing mobility of mountains.

[spin]

The Chumash, The Stone Edition , Artscroll Series
Rabbi Nosson Sherman/ Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz ,General Editors
Mesorah Publication Ltd
Eleventh Edition, Twelve impression December 2009
ISBN 139780899060149
14 Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of Hashem:
" the gift of the Sea of Reeds , and the rivers of Arnon;
15 the outpouring of the rivers when it veered to dwell at Ar, and leaned against the border of Moab

Note to 14: the gift of the Sea of Reeds , and the rivers of Arnon

That doesn't get us any further. There is no word for "gift" or "give" in the text, except possibly Waheb, which doesn't look related to giving. And clearly the above is not a translation as explained by semiopen. There is no reference to Yam Sup, the sea of reeds. The text says Supah with a locative preposition, in Supah, which is elsewhere translated as "whirlwind", including Nahum 1:3 b:Supah, "in the whirlwind". If we discount the whirlwind in the context, the Waheb All this means that there is nothing like "the gift of the Sea of Reeds" in the text. No gift. No "of". No sea of reeds. But that's just examining the actual words and not doing any necromancy.

)T-WHB B:SWPH	W:)T-H:NXLYM )RNWN
obj-WHB in Supah	and obj-the wadis of Arnon

There are two phrases here grammatically, both objective grammatically. The structure requires WHB to be nominal, ie it's a thing/place/noun.

And on WHB Genesius says that it's "a doubtful word... Some take it to be the name of a place... But Kimchi found in MSS. )TWHB in one word, which would be Aram. Ethpa. of the verb WHB, Jehovah dedit se in turbine. However, the whole passage is abrupt and very obscure." [Note: 1, there is no separator between the )T & WHB; 2, Latin = YHWH put himself in the whirlwind--wherever that idea came from.]

[beowulf]

They are not my translations.I am happy to accept the JPS Study Bible translation of:
14 Therefore the Book of the Wars of the Lord speaks of (b)...
(b) The quotation that follows is a fragment; text and meaning are uncertain
Waheb in Sulphah and the wadis of the Arnon,
and forget the Song of the Wars of Hashem and the Song of the Well as they are fragments of uncertain meaning.


I wonder what the original poster had in mind when he posted this question in this forum.

[semiopen]

The Peshitta doesn't appear on the link in the OP, but after looking at Ramban and more of the chapter, I think I'm beginning to understand.

NUMBERS CHAPTER 21 http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jps/num021.htm (JPS 1917)

The whole chapter is discussing, among other things, Sihon of the Amorites.

To Beowulf's point the structure in this chapter of this chapter is interesting as you get a little text and then the writer puts in a song, etc. The song's don't strike me as archaic (such as the Song of the Sea) but maybe archaic compared to when this passage was written. How a person can look at these passages and still say that this is written by some combination of God and Moses just baffles me.

I'm not aware of any sane people who have studied the matter that actually place the Amorites in this place and time.

Ramban translates 21:14 as Waheb in a storm. This has the great merit of being possible compared to the Yam Suf bullshit

Ramban notes that the Book of the Wars was written by the Proverbialists (I'm sure everyone else here knew that). He apparently gets that from

עַל־כֵּ֛ן יֹאמְר֥וּ הַמֹּשְׁלִ֖ים בֹּ֣אוּ חֶשְׁבּ֑וֹן תִּבָּנֶ֥ה וְתִכּוֹנֵ֖ן עִ֥יר סִיחֽוֹן׃
(Num 21:27 WTT)

Therefore the bards would recite: "Come to Heshbon; firmly built And well founded is Sihon's city. (Num 21:27 TNK)

הַמֹּשְׁלִ֖ים the Ramban translation say this word means Proverbialists as opposed to bards in JPS 1985. He has a point.

Ramban gives verse 28 as important -

כִּי־אֵשׁ֙ יָֽצְאָ֣ה מֵֽחֶשְׁבּ֔וֹן לֶהָבָ֖ה מִקִּרְיַ֣ת סִיחֹ֑ן אָֽכְלָה֙ עָ֣ר מוֹאָ֔ב בַּעֲלֵ֖י בָּמ֥וֹת אַרְנֹֽן׃
(Num 21:28 WTT)

For fire went forth from Heshbon, Flame from Sihon's city, Consuming Ar of Moab, The lords of Bamoth by the Arnon. (Num 21:28 TNK) (JPS 1985)

I guess this is where the flame comes in - לֶהָבָ֖ה

This is a very interesting chapter.