Waheb in the Peshitta

[DCHindley]

Doesn't Waheb in Arabic mean "giver" or "benefactor"?

I wonder if this could then be describing a spring of water. In Gaza, for instance, there is a Waheb El Wadia.

(RSV Num 21:13-18) 13 From there they set out, and encamped on the other side of the Arnon, which is in the wilderness, that extends from the boundary of the Amorites; for the Arnon is the boundary of Moab, between Moab and the Amorites.
14a Wherefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD,
14b "Waheb in Suphah, and the valleys of the Arnon, 15 and the slope of the valleys that extends to the seat of Ar, and leans to the border of Moab."
16a And from there they continued to Beer;
16b that is the well of which the LORD said to Moses,
16c "Gather the people together, and I will give them water."
17 Then Israel sang this song: "Spring up, O well! -- Sing to it! -- 18 the well which the princes dug, which the nobles of the people delved with the scepter and with their staves."

[Stephan Huller]

http://books.google.com/books?id=-wn8AB ... 14&f=false

The Samaritans treat "Suphah" differently

[Stephan Huller]

To DCH point the Valuate and the Targums read suphah as the Red Sea (ימא דסוף )

Sicut fecit in mari Rubro, sic faciet in torrentibus Arnon.

It is a very old interpretation because it was known to Origen

[Stephan Huller]

To DCH

http://books.google.com/books?id=JB9afw ... 22&f=false

[beowulf]

The Vulgate
Numbers 21:14


14 So it came to be written in the Book of the Lord’s Battles, What he did by the Red Sea, he will do again in the Valleys of Arnon;
14 Unde dicitur in libro bellorum Domini:Sicut fecit in mari Rubro, sic faciet in torrentibus Arnon.

14 διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ πόλεμος τοῦ κυρίου τὴν Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους Αρνων

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/num021.htm

It is interesting and very sad to read the contemporary translation of Num 21:14 in the Catholic Study Bible, Second Edition :
14 Hence it is said in the" Book of the Wars of the Lord" :Waheb in Sulpah and the Wadies,
15 ...

[spin]

14 So it came to be written in the Book of the Lord’s Battles, What he did by the Red Sea, he will do again in the Valleys of Arnon;

14 διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ πόλεμος τοῦ κυρίου τὴν Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους Αρνων

A few factoids about the Greek:

1) as with the objective markers in the Hebrew, the Greek articles την and τους are both accusative, matching the Hebrew structure with missing verb to govern them, though the Greek does supply a verb for the first accusative, τὴν Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν, confusing the structure further, for there is still no verb for the second accusative. Lectio difficilior supports the Hebrew original form of a fragment Waheb in Supah and the ravines of Arnon shorn of its verb.

2) Ζωοβ seems to be the equivalent to the Hebrew Waheb, suggesting a consonant structure from the Greek to the Hebrew ZHB (gold?—not likely) comparable to the Hebrew text's WHB. Given the similarity between a waw and a zayin, it may indicate a confusion in one direction to the other.

If #2 is correct, a difficulty: εφλογισεν, indicating "set on fire", would then be derived from Supah, whose meaning Genesius gives as "whirlwind, tempest", so how one would get "set on fire from Supah is not understandable. That makes for one to reconsider #2 with the possibility that just maybe Ζωοβ is derived from Supah. This is just struggling with the process from Hebrew to Greek.

[beowulf]

To DCH point the Valuate and the Targums read suphah as the Red Sea (ימא דסוף )

Sicut fecit in mari Rubro, sic faciet in torrentibus Arnon.

It is a very old interpretation because it was known to Origen

Interesting.

I have asked a Catholic to explain the difference between the Vulgate and the Catholic Study Bible , Second edition.
They may not answer, but I am looking forward to hearing from them.

[andrewcriddle]

To DCH point the Valuate and the Targums read suphah as the Red Sea (ימא דסוף )

Sicut fecit in mari Rubro, sic faciet in torrentibus Arnon.

It is a very old interpretation because it was known to Origen

Interesting.

I have asked a Catholic to explain the difference between the Vulgate and the Catholic Study Bible , Second edition.
They may not answer, but I am looking forward to hearing from them.

IIUC the Catholic Study Bible text is a translation from Greek and Hebrew not from the Vulgate Latin.

Andrew Criddle

[beowulf]

To DCH point the Valuate and the Targums read suphah as the Red Sea (ימא דסוף )

Sicut fecit in mari Rubro, sic faciet in torrentibus Arnon.

It is a very old interpretation because it was known to Origen

Interesting.

I have asked a Catholic to explain the difference between the Vulgate and the Catholic Study Bible , Second edition.
They may not answer, but I am looking forward to hearing from them.

IIUC the Catholic Study Bible text is a translation from Greek and Hebrew not from the Vulgate Latin.

Andrew Criddle

Yes, I know.
Perhaps they will find this clarification satisfactory

[beowulf]

Hi semiopen,

I am reading , The Torah , A modern commentary, Revised edition. Union for Reform Judaism.


The translation of Numbers 21 :14 could be a copy of the one in the JPS Jewish Study Bible, but the footnotes are different.

(14) informs that Sefer Milhamot Ha-Shem (The War of the Lord, 1329) is a medieval book written by Gersonides (Levi ben Gerson, acronym Ralbag). I suppose it is impossible not to inform of the existence of an important book on philosophy of the same title as the one mentioned in verse 14.


More relevant to our deliberation is the comment in the essay of page 1038 ff
Under the heading, The lost book, it writes:
This passage contains three separate quotations: 21:15-16 from the Book of the Wars of the Eternal ; 21: 17-18 from a song Israel sang; and 21:27-30 from a song the bards would recite (6)
Note (6) it may be that Jeremiah has such a song in mind ... ( Jer 48:45ff )
Note (7) The Septuagint and Targum Jerusalami held, however that the "Book" here referred to was the Torah itself. Of modern scholars Tur Sinai denies that the text refers to the existence of a separate book [47].
[47] Tur Sinai Vol. 1. pp. 167-169.
(8) Some scholars believe that the Book of Jashar is merely another name for the Book of the Wars of the Eternal[48]
[48] EM IV : 1066

Any comments?