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Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:11 pm
by Ben C. Smith
I am hoping someone with knowledge of the Palestinian/Jerusalem Talmud can help me unravel the various systems used to refer to this text. I am far more familiar with the Babylonian Talmud, and the Jerusalem Talmud still confuses me. There is a passage in Tractate Shabbath which runs like this:

Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbath 12.4: .... Said R. Eliezer to them, “Now did not ben Stada [בן סטדא] bring magical spells [כשפים] only in such wise?” They said to them, “Because of one fool shall we impose liability on all intelligent folk?”

I have this passage listed as coming from 12.4 (chapter 12, section 4) because that is the chapter and section of Tractate Shabbath from the Mishnah that this Talmudic passage is commenting on; also, I think that is how Neusner does it in his translation.

However, I have also seen this same passage paginated as 13d, which I think (?) maybe means it comes from the fourth column of folio 13, because apparently the Jerusalem Talmud goes by fours rather than by twos as we find in the Babylonian Talmud.

Moreover, though, on Sefaria I have found what appears to be this same passage, after a bit of searching in Hebrew with no English help whatsoever, straddling the juncture between 70a and 70b, the pagination on Sefaria for this Talmud not even including letters c and d; rather, this pagination system on Sefaria resembles the Babylonian system, with a and b going back and forth.

Does anyone know how these various systems work? Is there a comparison table somewhere that can be consulted to convert one to the other?

Thanks.

Ben.

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:29 am
by andrewcriddle
Hi Ben

13d is based on the pagination of the original Venice Edition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud
Sefaria is based on the pagination of the Vilna Edition
https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/185210?lang=bi
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/quest ... on-sefaria

Andrew Criddle

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:11 am
by Ben C. Smith
andrewcriddle wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:29 am
Hi Ben

13d is based on the pagination of the original Venice Edition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud
Sefaria is based on the pagination of the Vilna Edition
https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/185210?lang=bi
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/quest ... on-sefaria

Andrew Criddle
Very helpful. Makes sense. Thank you.

Is there a table comparing the two somewhere?

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:59 pm
by Secret Alias
The difference also comes down to book binding. Its publication is supervised by Cornelius Adelkind, who edits the edition of the Babylonian Talmud, which is printed in twelve volumes between 1520 and 1523, while the four volumes of the Jerusalem Talmud roll off the presses between 1522 and 1523. The Vilna edition was first printed in the 1870s and 1880s.

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:44 pm
by Ben C. Smith
Secret Alias wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:59 pm
The difference also comes down to book binding. Its publication is supervised by Cornelius Adelkind, who edits the edition of the Babylonian Talmud, which is printed in twelve volumes between 1520 and 1523, while the four volumes of the Jerusalem Talmud roll off the presses between 1522 and 1523. The Vilna edition was first printed in the 1870s and 1880s.
Thank you. Explains a lot.

On a marginally related note, I kind of want to learn to write like the authors of the Mishnah and the Talmud wrote: the most highly compressed text I have ever read, yet still comprehensible with the right background knowledge and context. (Those portions for which I lack the requisite background knowledge usually leave me wondering, "What the living heck does this mean??") The English translations like to expand and explain in media res, but the original Hebrew is tight as a drum.

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:15 pm
by Secret Alias
It makes Latin look verbose and flowery.

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:05 pm
by Ben C. Smith
Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:15 pm
It makes Latin look verbose and flowery.
Indeed.

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:55 am
by Secret Alias
My own personal opinion (and take this as you will) is that there is a fundamental difference between these essentially 'underground' writings is that they were shorthand for an already existing oral tradition. Take the number of times things like 'so and so in the name of so and so said.' This is notation which lays down in writing something circulating among a complex oral tradition. It is the very thing Irenaeus complains about in AH 3.1.2 i.e. the 'viva voce' of the heretics and even Papias's reference to the concept. I am not saying that Christians consciously 'imitated' Judaism per se. But that's how things were done. The Homeric writings were developments of oral traditions - even the Alexandrian efforts to codify them into 24 units. I think with Judaism this is in part owing to the Torah being established as THE writing. All else is 'walk' - halakhah. THE writing and THE walking. Exegesis strangely only becomes codified around the same time Irenaeus codifies the gospel. Some external force is forcing the traditions to be less 'underground.'

Re: Folios, chapters, & sections in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:57 am
by Secret Alias
But interesting too God 'speaks' and it becomes the written Law. Humans just talk. The authority of the correct exegesis is rooted in political power presumably which comes from God - i.e. the establishment of the political order.