Josephus question

[Kris]

I was recently looking into Josephus and the causes of the Jewish war. I ran across a Christian site that says Josephus reports that the golden candlestick was extinguished 40 years prior to the war. I could not find anything on this myself other than what is written in the Talmud (Yoma). Is the author being cited wrong about Josephus saying this? Here is the quote:

And now a shudder ran through Nature, as its Sun had set. We dare not do more than follow the rapid outlines of the Evangelic narrative. As the first token, it records the rending of the Temple-Veil in two from the top downward to the bottom; as the second, the quaking of the earth, the rending of the rocks and the opening of the graves. Although most writers have regarded this as indicating the strictly chronological succession, there is nothing in the text to bind us to such a conclusion. Thus, while the rending of the Veil is recorded first, as being the most significant token to Israel, it may have been connected with the earthquake, although this alone might scarcely account for the tearing of so heavy a Veil from the top to the bottom. Even the latter circumstance has its significance. That some great catastrophe, betokening the impending destruction of the Temple, had occurred in the Sanctuary about this very time, is confirmed by not less than four mutually independent testimonies: those of Tacitus,6163 of Josephus,6164 of the Talmud,6165 and of earliest Christian tradition6166. The most important of these are, of course, the Talmud and Josephus. The latter speaks of the mysterious extinction of the middle and chief light in the Golden Candlestick, forty years before the destruction of the Temple; and both he and the Talmud refer to a supernatural opening by themselves of the great Temple-gates that had been previously closed, which was regarded as a portent of the coming destruction of the Temple. We can scarcely doubt, that some historical fact must underlie so peculiar and widespread a tradition, and we cannot help feeling that it may be a distorted version of the occurrence of the rending of the Temple-Veil (or of its report) at the Crucifixion of Christ.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Total fabrication. You can see an inventory of all Josephus' reference to the Golden Candlestick here. I also did several kindle word searches on the complete works of Josephus and found nothing close. Josephus just says the Herodian Menorah was carried away by Titus.

[andrewcriddle]

There is a confusion here between what Josephus says (in Jew. War vi. 5. 3.) and what Talmud Yoma says. The correct reference is the Talmud

The rabbis taught: Forty years before the Temple was destroyed, the lot never came into the right hand, the red wool did not become white, the western light did not burn, and the gates of the Temple opened of themselves, till the time that R. Johanan b. Zakkai rebuked them, saying: "Temple, Temple, why alarmest thou us? We know that thou art destined to be destroyed. For of thee hath prophesied Zechariah ben Iddo [Zech. xi. 1]: 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, and the fire shall eat thy cedars.'"

Andrew Criddle

[DCHindley]

Total fabrication. You can see an inventory of all Josephus' reference to the Golden Candlestick here. I also did several kindle word searches on the complete works of Josephus and found nothing close. Josephus just says the Herodian Menorah was carried away by Titus.

The story seems to be connected to "servant" lamp that lit the other lamps of the sacred lamp in the temple in commemoration of the miracle of the one day's measure of consecrated oil lasting eight days so as to allow another batch of oil to be consecrated. It sounds to me like this servant lamp was never supposed to be extinguished, so as to be used to light the other lamps as required. The story confuses me, though, as I always thought that the sacred lamps (plural) all stayed lit as needed for 8 days on a single day ration of oil, which was all that they could find at the time of the rededication. However, the "miracle" of the servant lamp was that - it - stayed lit eight days, and was used to light the other lamps as required. Supposedly it retained this ability until 40 years prior to the final destruction, when it refused to stay lit that long on one day's ration of oil.

http://bibeltemplet.net/Menorah.html

Naturally, no specific citations are given. Josephus, as translated by Whiston, doesn't speak of "candlesticks," but lamps.

DCH (calling off this afternoon boss)

[semiopen]

This thread seems to have taken an ominous turn.

So far as I know, Josephus doesn't speak of the Menorah 8 day miracle.

Hanukkah

According to the Talmud, a late text, the Temple was purified and the wicks of the menorah miraculously burned for eight days, even though there was only enough sacred oil for one day's lighting.

The miracle of the one-day supply of oil miraculously lasting eight days is first described in the Talmud, committed to writing about 600 years after the events described in the books of Maccabees. [7]

Actually more like 900 years as we've discussed previously.

A while ago, Duvi was claiming some scroll or something dated to Maccabean times discussed the miracle. Of course, the text was far later (Talmudic) than that.

DCH's link sort of goes into the miracle without being clear about when it was made up.

[ficino]

I may have missed something while searching, but I did a TLG search for λυχν- in the BJ and found no passage that recounts the miracle of the Golden Candlestick alleged by Kris' source. The passage she quoted is from Alfred Edersheim's The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Edersheim seems to have screwed up - or falsified? - his reference to Josephus on this point.

[Kris]

This is what I think as well Ficino!

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Probably conflated Josephus with the servant light thing in the Talmud.

[Kris]

Yeah. Or the Talmud business!! See. This is how those errors and interpolations of Josephus and others happened back in the day---- and no one had the internet to do research!!

[andrewcriddle]

Probably conflated Josephus with the servant light thing in the Talmud.

Yes

Edersheim gives a clear footnote to Josephus here Jew. War vi. 5. 3 But although this discusses the omens of the coming fall of the temple it does not mention the candlestick.

Andrew Criddle