Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?

[ficino]

John, I forgot that you had written this:

"Glob did not address the most likely reason for so many scraps/fragments of writings by different scribes was due to new recruits having to leave behind/store their personal affects/writings inside caves before starting their 2 year initiation period."

So on your scenario, the "new recruits" ( = my "postulants") themselves had to deposit their personal effects inside caves? Or did they surrender their belongings in the settlement, and then someone in charge of postulants had the belongings brought up into caves and the postulants' books put in jars?

On the face of it, this scenario either way seems unlikely. Why would books like at least thirteen copies of the Manual of Discipline be put in jars, in which scrolls on the bottom would be covered by scrolls on the top, if they would be useful to the community? The whole layout of the scrolls in jars in caves thing looks like hiding, not sequestering of postulants' property. Is there anything in the DSS that governs how and where postulants' property was to be sequestered during their trial period?

So far, while I acknowledge that Golb's theory has a "soft underbelly," as Vermes puts it, I'm not convinced that it's wrong. But as I said before, I'm no expert, and other commitments do not allow me the leisure to try to become one. I'm just a guy who likes ancient texts.

[spin]

@ficino,

There only so much you can verify with physical evidence.
Most answers are in the most obvious place, the scrolls themselves. However, for whatever reason people don't take the time to read them.
That is how James Tabor was able to prove Josephus was right about the Essenes. Simply by reading the DSS, Tabor noted their latrines were located outside of the camp at a precise distance and direction. By finding the latrines where the DSS said they would be he made a positive proof of who wrote the DSS. The Essenes ant Quram wrote them.

Mystery solved.

Respectfully,

John T

All of them? [sentence above bolded by me]

And they put them in jars in caves because... ?

ficino, the only report of scrolls being in jars was the very first, ie when Muhammed the goatherd found cave #1. There certainly was food found with the fragments de Vaux found in the cave. No scrolls were found, but then the Ta'amireh had taken all the scrolls, so there is no way to confirm the report. No scrolls have since been found in jars. In fact one jar was found in the settlement embedded in the floor, so obviously it was not used for scrolls. There is no evidence to run with regarding the jars.

As John T is still making a fool of himself over latrines, he's never going to deal with the toilet in the midst of the Qumran settlement. And toadying to Tabor, a scholar with no creds in the field, is not going to help John T understand the scrolls. TV documentary makers are not really good points of reference for understanding the world generally.

The archaeological context of Qumran was analyzed by Joseph Patrich many years ago and his research indicated that there were really very few people living at the settlement. He put the number in the twenties. These people he believed like in other places lived on the upper floor of the settlement. The numbers postulated by the Essene theory could not be sustained by the site and there were no signs of permanent tent dwelling—such as rubbish dumps, clearings and paths—in the vicinity of Qumran, nor did the caves serve such a function. (Joseph Patrich in The Dead Sea Scrolls: Fifty Years After Their Discovery. Edited by Lawrence H. Schiffman, Emanuel Tov, James C. VanderKam, and Galen Marquis (Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 2000) 720-727) A small population at Qumran along with the kilns and other facilities reflects not a sect center but the commercial center of various scholars.

There is no reason based on any number of dwellers at the site to have 30+ copies of Deuteronomy, especially when one considers that the literacy rate was less than 3% according to Ian Young. Why would such a small community need oodles of copies of their texts? Clearly they didn't. Clearly the texts were not the product of a small community, as there were many scribal hands involved in their production. Clearly scroll production as manifested in the DSS required a source able to support so many scribes. That excludes the sectarian context.

[ficino]

ficino, the only report of scrolls being in jars was the very first, ie when Muhammed the goatherd found cave #1. There certainly was food found with the fragments de Vaux found in the cave. No scrolls were found, but then the Ta'amireh had taken all the scrolls, so there is no way to confirm the report. No scrolls have since been found in jars. In fact one jar was found in the settlement embedded in the floor, so obviously it was not used for scrolls. There is no evidence to run with regarding the jars.

Ah, didn't know that, thanks! And thanks for the other info in your post above, too.

[John T]

News flash*

"The 54-year-old Golb was convicted of adopting aliases in derogatory emails and blog posts — including sending emails that seemed like confessions of plagiarism by one of his father's key adversaries in a scholarly debate over the scrolls' origin....[The DSS] Containing the earliest known versions of portions of the Hebrew Bible, the scrolls have enhanced scholars' understanding of the history of Judaism and the beginnings of Christianity since their discovery in caves in Israel, beginning in the 1940s. Some researchers believe the texts were assembled by a sect known as the Essenes; others — including Golb's father, University of Chicago historian Norman Golb — say the writings were the work of a range of Jewish groups and communities. Raphael Golb said his electronic barbs were intended to illuminate what he saw as important information about the debate. But Manhattan Assistant District Attorney John Bandler called Golb's behavior a protracted, malicious effort "to impersonate others and destroy their careers."...JENNIFER PELTZ

http://www.theitem.com/stories/after-ap ... ase,225848

Anybody you know Spin?

[John T]

Old news flash*

"While some scholars have since argued that there is, in fact, no connection between the site of Qumran and the scrolls, scroll scholar Sidnie White Crawford writes in “A View from the Caves” that evidence from the Qumran caves proves that de Vaux was right after all...According to Sidnie White Crawford, almost every composition found in the other ten caves, including the caves in the limestone cliffs, is also found in Cave 4. The lack of any discernable order among the texts suggests they were all hurriedly placed in the cave at the same time, possibly in an effort to hide them from the Roman legion that was advancing on Qumran in 68 C.E. In addition, Sidnie White Crawford found evidence that the same pottery jars in which the scrolls were stored are also found in fragments all over the site of Qumran. This evidence indicates that those who placed the scrolls in the caves and those who lived at Khirbet Qumran were one and the same."...BAS

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail ... hem-there/

Here is a picture of one of the jars.

http://www.centuryone.com/dssjar.html

[John T]

ficino posted: "So on your scenario, the "new recruits" ( = my "postulants") themselves had to deposit their personal effects inside caves? Or did they surrender their belongings in the settlement, and then someone in charge of postulants had the belongings brought up into caves and the postulants' books put in jars?"

I don't know the process but it is clear they had one.

The Community Rule V,15&20 : "For all those not reckoned in His Covenant are to be set apart together with all that is theirs...when he has completed one year within the Community, the Congregation shall deliberate his case with regard to his understanding and observance of the Law. [if he is found worthy] ...his property and earnings shall be handed over to the Bursar of the Congregation who shall register it to his account."...1QS.

Common sense would say they placed their personal (unclean) belongings outside the community and storing them in the overlooking caves makes the most sense to me.
Once again, I'm no scholar of the DSS, but I have read most of the sectarian writings and it is clear the Essene's separated themselves from the Temple and would not want any of the unauthorized Temple Priest writings in their camp. In the jar/cave they go.

"And when these become members of the Community in Israel according to all these rules, they shall separate from the habitation of the unjust men and shall go into the wilderness to prepare the way of Him"...The Community Rule

I don't know about you but the way of the "way", sure sounds like John the Baptist was an Essene.

[Sheshbazzar]

John T; "it is clear the Essene's separated themselves from the Temple and would not want any of the unauthorized Temple Priest writings in their camp. In the jar/cave they go."

Were the 'Community Rule' scrolls also 'unclean'?

What then is your explanation for these 'Community Rules' being found within the caves mingled among what you allege to be 'unclean' unauthorized Temple Priest writings' ?

Which particular Dead Sea scroll(s) _(give exact scroll/text & reference number(s) please)_ are you alleging were/are, in your view, found to be 'unclean' 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings' to the Essenes?

[John T]

@Sheshbazzar,

Thank you for being respectful in your last set of questions. Therefore, I will try to answer them.
As far as I know, no copies of Esther were found among the DSS also, Maccabees likewise was not found.

Now you can believe what Schiffman believes and chalk it up to a "funny accident" or you can use the absence of those writings as a clue to what an unclean Temple writing would be.

Sincerely,
John T

[Sheshbazzar]

@Sheshbazzar,

Thank you for being respectful in your last set of questions. Therefore, I will try to answer them.
As far as I know, no copies of Esther were found among the DSS also, Maccabees likewise was not found.

Does that indicate to you that the scrolls of Esther and Maccabees were "unclean" 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings' to the members of this sect ?'
IF, as you have been positing here, the caves were actually depositories for "unclean" 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings', then these types of allegedly 'unclean' texts are exactly what WOULD be expected to be found in the depository caves for "unclean" 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings', Not absent.
Instead the caves contained copious copies of The Community Rules, and other of this sects own sacred compositions as well as the Torah's, The Prophets, and Psalms common to the Jewish faith.

This is why I asked you to identify "unclean" scrolls that were PRESENT within these DSS depositories of allegedly (according to you) "unclean" 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings.'

Now you can believe what Schiffman believes and chalk it up to a "funny accident" or you can use the absence of those writings as a clue to what an unclean Temple writing would be.

If they were 'unclean' as you allege, and these cave depositories were for the storage of "unclean" 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings' as you allege, then one would expect to find them PRESENT as "unclean" 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings', not absent.

Instead we find the sacred writings of this sect, mingled along with an abundance of mainstream Jewish religious texts.
Thus your argument for the caches having been depositories for "unclean" 'unauthorized Temple Priest writings" seems to be seriously lacking in logic.
You need to come up with a better, more consistent, and coherent explanation.

Sincerely, Sheshbazzar

[John T]

@Sheshabazzar,

You keep trying to avoid the obvious step by step approach of deductive reasoning.
First we establish that the theory by Glob, Schiffman and Spin are wrong. That being, if the scrolls were deposited "willy-nilly' from the Temple library then you should expect to find Esther and/or Maccabees.

Yes or No?

Spin and Schiffman have no answer other than, it was a "funny accident".

Agreed?

When you were going to school do you remember having textbooks that after several years they had to be replaced due to excessive handling of previous students?

Now what would you do with scrolls that are worn or contain too many scribal errors, would you keep them with the best of the best that is within the camp of the Essene community or would you provide them to wanna-be members to study/practice with while they are still living outside of the camp? Do you think the leader of the camp would have the best of the best or the worst of the worst?

Likewise, if the camp makes money from making and then selling Biblical scrolls to outsiders, where would those copies for sell be kept?
Did that help?

Sincerely,

John T