Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Ged
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:35 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Post by Ged »

How do critical bible scholars view the formation of the early Israelitish nation? I'm not so much interested in arguing whether the Exodus was a historical fact or not, (although I personally think it was) but I am interested to hear a discussion on the following questions:

Did they migrate from Egypt and relocate in the Levant? (or)
Did the Hebrew race evolve from out of other existing tribes in Canaan?

And one more question for any who might be interested: :?: Was the Hebrew calendar (and knowledge of astronomy) their own, or adapted from cultures around about them?

Thanks
The science of arranging time in periods and ascertaining the dates and historical order of past events.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Post by MrMacSon »

My understanding is the long Exodus into and out of Egypt was highly unlikely. The exodus into and out of Babylon 600-500 BCE was, as far as I understand, highly significant as it was in Babylon a lot of significant Jewish theology was developed. I wonder if Zoroastrianism, then developing in nearby Persia, had a significant influence on aspects of Jewish theology.

I think there have been other Jewish exoduses, besides those brought about by the Jewish-Roman wars in the 1st and early 2nd C CE.
semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Post by semiopen »

This is sort of apples and oranges.

The Exodus from Egypt is a mass migration of people whereas Babylon is more or less just the upper classes from Judah. The ten lost tribes is about the same.

The Diaspora from the Roman-Jewish wars probably just didn't happen, certainly not on anywhere close to the scale of the other exiles.

There is no evidence for any Israelite presence in Egypt, much less a large one. Archaeology of early Israelite sites in Palestine shows no Egyptian influence.

To make the Bible make sense, you have to twist things around to create a credible theory and even then there are ridiculous holes... this seems self defeating.

Regarding the Hebrew_calendar a lot of it is from Babylon, such as the month names.

The length of the Lunar_month is often hailed as a brilliant example of early (Rabbinic) Jewish scholarship but the calculation is more probably Greek, certainly not Jewish.

I don't think the seven day week was known in First Temple times but apparently the murkiness of the subject makes it difficult to discuss academically.
Clive
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Post by Clive »

I thought the archaeology was very clear - canaanite groups who have interesting distinctive features - like no pig bones in rubbish heaps.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Post by semiopen »

I'm not sure what the pig bones (or lack thereof) indicate about Egypt, I was thinking of pottery styles, etc. which don't show Egyptian influence - although this discussion is nuanced.

For example,

http://www.archaeology.org/issues/139-1 ... ian-burial
The finds suggest Egyptian burial rites: The coffin’s sculpted lid is Egyptian in style, the vessels would have held offerings for the gods, and a gold scarab ring in the coffin bears the name of the pharaoh Seti I, who conquered the region in the thirteenth century B.C. Perhaps the remains belonged to an Egyptian living in Canaan, but the pottery was locally produced. This raises the possibility that the interred was a Canaanite either employed by the Egyptian government or wealthy enough to want to emulate one of their burials. The ruling Egyptians exerted a strong influence over the Canaanite upper class at the time.
In Jewish exegesis, they sort of make up a sheep god in Egypt.

http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2009/03 ... egypt.html

which seems to be, for the most part, total bullshit (no pun intended).

The insidious thing about this is that if a normal person hears about the sheep god, they probably think it is true and don't bother to check it out. Personally I get offended if people tell me lies like that.

The link gets into the Hyksos - "Shepherd Kings" mistranslation
The finds suggest Egyptian burial rites: The coffin’s sculpted lid is Egyptian in style, the vessels would have held offerings for the gods, and a gold scarab ring in the coffin bears the name of the pharaoh Seti I, who conquered the region in the thirteenth century B.C. Perhaps the remains belonged to an Egyptian living in Canaan, but the pottery was locally produced. This raises the possibility that the interred was a Canaanite either employed by the Egyptian government or wealthy enough to want to emulate one of their burials. The ruling Egyptians exerted a strong influence over the Canaanite upper class at the time.
Clive
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Post by Clive »

My point was that the evidence points to settled groups, not incomers.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Hebrews out of Canaan or Egypt?

Post by MrMacSon »

semiopen wrote:This is sort of apples and oranges.

The Exodus from Egypt is a mass migration of people ....
  • <snip>
There is no evidence for any Israelite presence in Egypt, much less a large one. Archaeology of early Israelite sites in Palestine shows no Egyptian influence.
It's not clear whether you think "the Exodus" into and out of Egypt happened or not.

Of course, the mention of the Babylonian exodus is not directly relevant to the narrative of the Egyptian exodus, but it is likely the narrative of the Egyptian exodus was developed or cemented during the Babylonian exodus: the then-recent Babylonian exodus might well have influenced development of the narrative of a 'foundational exodus'.
Post Reply