Urim and Thummim

[John T]

Apparently, the high priest kept a small pouch attached to the ephod (Exodus 28:29). Inside the pouch were two magic items known as the Urim and Thummim. The high priest using the Urim and Thummim would cast them as lots to determine solutions asked of God.

Use of magic idols would seem to be in direct violation of the law of Moses.

What is the history of the Urim and Thummim, were they graven idols taken from the Pharaoh at the time of the exodus?
If so, which Egyptian gods does the Urim and Thummim represent?

Sincerely,
John T

[John T]

Whoever controls the Urim and Thummin must be a higher god than the God of Moses for even the God of Moses said he will obey the decision made by the Urim Thummin.
Deuteronomy 17:8-12

"Even God must obey their decree as it is written, 'You will decree and he will fulfill it."
Midrash Pesikta Rabbati

"God does not play dice with the world."...Albert Einstein

Since there is no such thing as chance, then which god is in control of the Urim and Thummin if not the God of Moses?

[semiopen]

I don't understand the reference to Deuteronomy 17:8-12, as neither Urim or Thummim is mentioned.

If a case is too baffling for you to decide, be it a controversy over homicide, civil law, or assault -- matters of dispute in your courts -- you shall promptly repair to the place that the LORD your God will have chosen, 9 and appear before the levitical priests, or the magistrate in charge at the time, and present your problem. When they have announced to you the verdict in the case, 10 you shall carry out the verdict that is announced to you from that place that the LORD chose, observing scrupulously all their instructions to you. 11 You shall act in accordance with the instructions given you and the ruling handed down to you; you must not deviate from the verdict that they announce to you either to the right or to the left. 12 Should a man act presumptuously and disregard the priest charged with serving there the LORD your God, or the magistrate, that man shall die. Thus you will sweep out evil from Israel:
(Deu 17:8-12 TNK)

Urim and Thummim are hard to break up and in this respect are to Country and Western music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZfUnCK5qk

Urim actually occurs in onlyseven passages and always in conjunction with Thummim which is a pretty common word.

[John T]

Urim & Thummin is found in Exodus 28:30 "In the breastpiece of judgment you shall put the Urim and Thummim, and they shall be on Aaron's heart when he goes in before the LORD; thus Aaron shall bear the judgment of the Israelites on his heart before the LORD continually."...NRSV

[John T]

When/where did Moses get the Urim and Thummim?

Moses goes into great detail about how to construct the mercy seat and the breastpiece of judgment. The breastpiece of judgment is actually crafted with a secret pocket to hold the Urim and Thummim. Oddly, no details on how the make the Urim and Thummim are given by Moses. Thus, I infer Moses already had them before the Exodus.

Surely, there is a story about the origin of the Urim and Thummim beyond the Bible.
Anyone know?

[John2]

I find eight references to Urim and Thummim on the biblehub:

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=URIM

I haven't given them much thought in about 15 years though. Seemed like a dead end at the time, as far as what the OT tells us. And since I don't remember what post-biblical writings say about them, your questions make me want to look into that.

[DCHindley]

When/where did Moses get the Urim and Thummim?

Moses goes into great detail about how to construct the mercy seat and the breastpiece of judgment. The breastpiece of judgment is actually crafted with a secret pocket to hold the Urim and Thummim. Oddly, no details on how the make the Urim and Thummim are given by Moses. Thus, I infer Moses already had them before the Exodus.

Surely, there is a story about the origin of the Urim and Thummim beyond the Bible.
Anyone know?

Joseph Smith says he found Seer stones with the golden plates with the book of Mormon that the angel Moroni showed to him at hill Cumorah (in NY state, USA, in case anyone has to ask), which he tended to identify with the Interpreter mentioned in the BoM, which LDS brass think is the equivalent of the Urim and Thummim of the OT.

DCH

[John T]

When/where did Moses get the Urim and Thummim?

Moses goes into great detail about how to construct the mercy seat and the breastpiece of judgment. The breastpiece of judgment is actually crafted with a secret pocket to hold the Urim and Thummim. Oddly, no details on how the make the Urim and Thummim are given by Moses. Thus, I infer Moses already had them before the Exodus.

Surely, there is a story about the origin of the Urim and Thummim beyond the Bible.
Anyone know?

Joseph Smith says he found Seer stones with the golden plates with the book of Mormon that the angel Moroni showed to him at hill Cumorah (in NY state, USA, in case anyone has to ask), which he tended to identify with the Interpreter mentioned in the BoM, which LDS brass think is the equivalent of the Urim and Thummim of the OT.

DCH

Very funny but I'm trying to be semi-serious.
If I need to point it out again, although I have read the book of Mormon, I am not a Mormon and consider the book of Mormon fiction. Still, I admire the imagination of the writer and have often guessed who it was that wrote it, perhaps David Hume or Leibniz, I don't know but that is a discussion for another day. Be as that may, let me rewrite the question; What sources outside of the book of Mormon give account of the history of the Urim and Thummim?

John T

[John T]

Joseph talks about the Urim and Thummim in the Antiquities of the Jews and claims it was last used by ..."John Hycranus, whom Josephus esteemed as king, a priest, and a prophet; and who, he says, foretold several things that came to pass accordingly; but about the time of his death, he here implies, that this oracle quite ceased, and not before."...William Whiston, footnote 'f' The Antiquities of the Jews Book 3 chapter 9 or (215).

I have a larger point to all of this but I first need help in finding out the presumed origin of the stones before I make that point.
Who better to ask for help on that research than posters on BC&H and especially DCHindley?

Sincerely,
John T

[John T]

I find eight references to Urim and Thummim on the biblehub:

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=URIM

I haven't given them much thought in about 15 years though. Seemed like a dead end at the time, as far as what the OT tells us. And since I don't remember what post-biblical writings say about them, your questions make me want to look into that.

John2, thanks for the link.

As you already know, Josephus gets accused of lifting some of his history from Philo and although Philo writes about the Urim and Thummim I can't find any comments about the origins of the stones from Philo either.

I also tried breaking down the meaning of the words for clues as to the origin of the stones, but that too has been unfruitful just as your link Biblehub points out.

"If we turn to etymology for assistance, we are not only on uncertain ground, but when Babylonian and other foreign words are brought in to bolster up a theory abput anything so little understood as the Urim and Thummim, we are on dangerous ground."...Biblehub

Perhaps the Halakah or Haggadah has some information?
I don't even know how to do a word search within those sources.

Sincerely,

John T