Urim and Thummim

[semiopen]

Perhaps the Halakah or Haggadah has some information?
I don't even know how to do a word search within those sources.

I think the coolest explanation is that they were some kind of two way radio.

A while back, I criticized Dufi for saying Haggadah -

is a Jewish text that sets forth the order of the Passover Seder.

You (and he) probably meant to say Aggadah -

refers to the homiletic and non-legalistic exegetical texts in the classical rabbinic literature of Judaism, particularly as recorded in the Talmud and Midrash.

Technically, as Dufi pointed out, the two words are the same as "Ha" means "the" in Hebrew, however he was just trying to defend his silly choice of terms.

Halakha -

It includes the 613 mitzvot ("commandments"), subsequent talmudic and rabbinic law and the customs and traditions compiled in the Shulchan_Aruch

.

Actually the simplest place to look is the Talmud, but I really doubt there is any Halakha involved with these - maybe wash your hands before handling them after a bowel movement.

Searching for information is very difficult and should only be attempted by someone with insight, and erudition.

I went to https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=ur ... sdt=0%2C31

The Rabbis apparently feel that the Urim and Thummim were not around during the Second Temple. My guess is that any magical powers were added later.

[Peter Kirby]

Perhaps the Halakah or Haggadah has some information?
I don't even know how to do a word search within those sources.

They are not completely online for search.

But the BC&H "early writings" search engine might be helpful.

http://bcharchive.org/

Urim and Thummim in Early Jewish Writings

Urim and Thummim in Talmud

Urim and Thummim in Church Fathers

It also might be helpful to find secondary literature this way:

Urim and Thummim in articles

Urim and Thummim in Google Books

Urim and Thummim in articles on Jstor

Urim and Thummin in books

Urim and Thummim in blogs

Urim and Thummim on forums

Urim and Thummim plain google search

[andrewcriddle]

Tractate yoma contains talmudic traditions/speculations about Urim and Thummim.

Andrew Criddle

[Peter Kirby]

Tractate yoma contains talmudic traditions/speculations about Urim and Thummim.

Andrew Criddle

Incidentally this helped me identify an omission in my definitions for searching the Talmud at this website.

Thanks! It's now fixed.

This result can now be found, along with others, through the Early Writings search (but the spelling of Tumim/Thummim is an issue to be careful of).

[John T]

"The Rabbis apparently feel that the Urim and Thummim were not around during the Second Temple. My guess is that any magical powers were added later."...semiopen

*****************

Perhaps they were indeed around during the Second Temple period. Supposedly only a high-priest of the right blood line and pure in heart could use them, that is; just before battle, the High Priest would call upon the name of the LORD and be saved, (pseudo-Johanthan).

So, perhaps Ananias and/or his son Eleazar did not qualify as rightful high-priests? W 2.17.2 (409&429).

Still, the origins of the Urim and Thummim is what I'm searching for, not when it was last used/lost.

P.S. As it is already very clear, I am very ignorant on the many different types/sources of Jewish writings. Thanks guys for taking the time and effort to give suggestions (links). I will look over all of them slowly but surely.

Sincerely,
John T

[John T]

@semiopen,

Not to argue over spelling/semantics but apparently (according to your wiki source), 'haggadah' is acceptable.

"Homiletic midrashim embraces the interpretation of the non-legal portions of the Hebrew Bible. These midrashim are sometimes referred to as aggadah or haggadah, a loosely defined term that may refer to all non-legal discourse in classical rabbinic literature."...wiki

"... aggadic explanations could be philosophical or mystical disquisitions concerning angels, demons, paradise, hell, the messiah, Satan, feasts and fasts, parables, legends, satirical assaults on those who practice idolatry, etc. Some of these midrashim entail mystical teachings."...wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash

I'm looking for writings that may cast light on the origins of the Urim and Thummim and 'midrash aggadah' would seem to be a logical starting point.

Sincerely,

John T

[John T]

I found a book titled; "Book of Legends/Sefer Ha-Aggadah: Legends from the Talmud and Midrash" by William G. Braude.

The book is written in English and the index has several listings for Urim and Thummim.
However, I don't believe the book will be found at my public library nor do I want to buy it for $50 just to find out that it doesn't have what I'm looking for.

Has anyone read the book?
http://www.amazon.com/Book-Legends-Sefe ... 0805241132

Sincerely,

John T

[John T]

Guys,

Thanks for all of your help, especially Peter.

After scanning all the links, (which left me with a killer headache) the best answer I could find for the origins for the Urim and Thummim comes from the Samaritian Pentateuch.

"And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy [place], for a memorial before the LORD continually. And you make the Urim and the Thummim."... Exodus 28:29

"And they did bind the breastplate by his rings unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it might be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate might not be loosed from the ephod; as the LORD commanded Moses. And they are making Urim and Tummim as the LORD instructed Moses."... Exodus 39:21

https://sites.google.com/site/interline ... ish/exodus

Which means the Urim and the Thummim were hand crafted of an unknown earthly material and not a gift from God.

Unless someone has any other evidence to the contrary then I shall proceed to the larger point.

Sincerely,

John T

[semiopen]

I found a book titled; "Book of Legends/Sefer Ha-Aggadah: Legends from the Talmud and Midrash" by William G. Braude.

The book is written in English and the index has several listings for Urim and Thummim.
However, I don't believe the book will be found at my public library nor do I want to buy it for $50 just to find out that it doesn't have what I'm looking for.

Has anyone read the book?
http://www.amazon.com/Book-Legends-Sefe ... 0805241132

Sincerely,

John T

I've got this book - but "read" is a very strong word. This is stuff compiled from the Talmud etc, as I pointed out before.

Notice how the renowned authors put the "Ha-" before Aggadah to keep people from making the ghastly mistake of writing Haggadah.

Regarding the insight -

88:82 - Stones on the breastplate were the origin of all nation's flags. Discusses the colors and types of each tribes stones.]

94:104 mentions them in passing

107:8 The land of Israel was divided by lot and the U&T - how could it be done by both...tribe names were put in one urn, boundaries in another... the high priest (Eleazar) would declare what tribe was going to be drawn from urn 1 which happened of course, and then the location was drawn from urn 2.

116-17:77 Downfall of Saul -

Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me and brought me up?" And Saul answered, "I am in great trouble. The Philistines are attacking me and God has turned away from me; He no longer answers me, either by prophets or in dreams. So I have called you to tell me what I am to do." (1Sa 28:15 TNK)

Why didn't Saul mention the U&T in addition to the prophets and dreams? Personally, my guess is that they hadn't invented the U&T when that was written.

119-85 David's harp -

The sages took counsel with Ahithophel sought advise from the Sanhedrin, and inquired of the Urim and Thummin. [After that they would go forth to wage war.]

Sanhedrin looks a little anachronistic.

480:106

After the early prophets died, the Urim and Thummim ceased.

Sot 9:12

I guess the sages weren't Maccabee sluts.

758:324

But he shall present himself to Eleazar the priest, who shall on his behalf seek the decision of the Urim before the LORD. By such instruction they shall go out and by such instruction they shall come in, he and all the Israelites, the whole community." (Num 27:21 TNK)

When Israel goes to war, the court above sits to decide whether Ithey will be victorious or defeated - seems to go without saying.

[John2]

John T,

This link looks like it has what you want in one place:

http://www.jhsonline.org/cocoon/JHS/a064.html