Why crucifixion?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:48 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:09 am
neilgodfrey wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:45 am
As for alternative christs I'm thinking of, say, Revelation, in which the child was snatched up to heaven in order to avoid death on earth -- not a faux crucifixion as we might expect from docetic types.
But in Revelation the Woman gave birth to the child in the lower heavens, not on earth. Then, after that the child was snatched up to upper heavens, the Woman goes to wilderness, to mean the earth (this earth) before the creation. After the celestial battle between the now adult Christ (with the archangel Michael) and the demons, the world is created, with Satan relegated to rule only the world, from now on. Having now the his powers only on this world, Satan could only persecute the Woman (who was left on this world in the wilderness). But the Woman is saved and therefore Satan can only persecute the Christians, now. How? In the form of a "beast raising from sea" (the Roman Empire) and of heresy/paganism.

Note that a distinction is necessary between the Moderate Docetism of the Gnostic type (Marcion, etc) and the Radical Docetism of the Jewish-Christian type. The former was a gentile phenomenon, while the latter was the early compromise between the first gospel and the veritable mythicist accusations by early mythicist anti-Christian Jews. Ignatius attacks Jewish-Christians for their Radical Docetism, not gentile Christians for their Moderate Docetism.
You have some very interesting ideas and see some very interesting connections, but I fear your superior confidence in your interpretation and conclusions leaves all debate and discussion impossible. Are we to accept your views as incontrovertible?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:47 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:48 am
but I fear your superior confidence in your interpretation and conclusions leaves all debate and discussion impossible. Are we to accept your views as incontrovertible?
I would like only that these points are at least not ignored. All here.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:23 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:14 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:04 pm
I don't see where the significance or the use of crucifixion can/will unlock anything of worth.

Could it have been an out growth of older symbols for rebirth?

An extension of ancient body language?

An historical event?

A motif popular in ancient novels at the time?

Some cosmic symbol?

As the ark/sail of the new covenant?

The answer can be yes to all of these. It isn't because there is a lack of meaning to the cross; but because there is too much meaning behind it that it would be like finding a needle in a stack of needles.
Well, then, but you and I live in different conceptual worlds, so it is understandable if the parameters and goals will differ, as well.
It just seems like a waste of time. Like asking why Rowling made Harry the chosen one and not Neville?

If you're looking for some deeper meaning behind why crucifixion was chosen, well, it's a waste of time. You will get nowhere with it.

Instead, focus on the virgin birth, since there is a deliberate reason behind it.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:27 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:23 am
It just seems like a waste of time. Like asking why Rowling made Harry the chosen one and not Neville?

If you're looking for some deeper meaning behind why crucifixion was chosen, well, it's a waste of time. You will get nowhere with it.
I disagree with pretty much all of this.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:28 am

Another explanation of the origin of the crucifixion, one very interesting:

Ben has talked about the crucifixion as a servile supplicium by definition, since this form of death was applied to slaves in primis.

The translation of the Jewish word ébed (=servant), by the Greek word παῖς (child, young slave, Latin: puer) inspired the idea that the Messiah had to be of very humble condition.

He was the son (παῖς) of God, hence the slave of God (still a παῖς !), hence he had to die as a slave: i.e. crucified.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:33 am

In addition to the post immediately above, there is another explanation:

The Sun declining towards the Abyss and plunging into red clouds suggested that it had been mutilated by the celestial demons.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

klewis
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by klewis » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:09 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:09 am
But in Revelation the Woman gave birth to the child in the lower heavens, not on earth. Then, after that the child was snatched up to upper heavens, the Woman goes to wilderness, to mean the earth (this earth) before the creation. After the celestial battle between the now adult Christ (with the archangel Michael) and the demons, the world is created, with Satan relegated to rule only the world, from now on. Having now the his powers only on this world, Satan could only persecute the Woman (who was left on this world in the wilderness). But the Woman is saved and therefore Satan can only persecute the Christians, now. How? In the form of a "beast raising from sea" (the Roman Empire) and of heresy/paganism.

Note that a distinction is necessary between the Moderate Docetism of the Gnostic type (Marcion, etc) and the Radical Docetism of the Jewish-Christian type. The former was a gentile phenomenon, while the latter was the early compromise between the first gospel and the veritable mythicist accusations by early mythicist anti-Christian Jews. Ignatius attacks Jewish-Christians for their Radical Docetism, not gentile Christians for their Moderate Docetism.
There is a lot going into Revelation 11-13, from my standpoint, John is just inserting Hebrew Scripture texts as he wrote Revelation. The difference is that he uses parallel formation to copy the text. I really don't think that much of the book of Revelation is a theology being formed but a parallel formation forming a theology. Sure there are times he strays from the source material and in that case he is interjecting theology beyond the source text. By and large, the bulk of Revelation is derived from sources in the Hebrew scriptures and through internal parallel formation. For example, below I show how Isaiah was inserted into Revelation and how at a later time he made chiasmus with the four attacks on Satan and the first four trumpets.



From Isaiah Found in Revelation
An illustration that even if the oak tree (believers) and a tenth of the city is burned, a new crop of believers will be sprouted from the acorns (Isa 6:10-13). In that day there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified, and gave glory to the God of heaven (Rev 11:13).
A sign of a woman with child (Isa 7:14-5). A sign in heaven of a woman and child (Rev 12:1-2).
The land will go from plentiful harvest to weeds (Isa 7:17-22). The land will go from plentiful harvest to weeds (Rev 12:3-4).
Before the child knows how to say “father” or “mother” the child will be carried away by the King of Assyria (Isa 8:4). Before Satan could kill the child God took him away (Rev 12:4-5).
The army will sweep through Israel like a flood but will not destroy Judah (Isa 8:5-17). The serpent spewed water out of his mouth so that he might cause her to be carried away. The earth rescued the woman by absorbing the water (Rev 12:15-16).
The serpent spewed water out of his mouth so that he might cause her to be carried away. The earth rescued the woman by absorbing the water (Isa 8:19-22). Those who obey the commandments of God and the Lamb (Rev 12:17)
God nourished the woman (Rev 12:6, 14).
Those who obey the commandments of God and the Lamb
God nourished the woman (Isa 9:4).
Those who obey the commandments of God and the Lamb
God nourished the woman (Rev 12:5).
When the son is born the government shall be upon his shoulders. His name will be called wonderful, counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end (Isa 9:6-7). The child was caught up to God, and to his throne (Rev 12:5).
Now the salvation, the power, the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ has come (Rev 12:10; see also 11:15).
Syria and the Philistines will devour Israel with an open mouth (Isa 9:12). Satan wanted to devour the child (Rev 12:4).
Satan spewed water out of his mouth like a river (Rev 12:14).
Satan wanted to devour the child (Isa 9:15).
Satan spewed water out of his mouth like a river (Isa 9:16).
Satan’s tail drew a third of the stars of the sky and threw them to the earth (Rev 12:4).
Satan and his angels were thrown to the earth (Rev 12:7-8). . .
knowing that he has but a short time (Rev 12:12).
God’s anger will not turn away (Isa 9:17). Satan has great wrath (Rev 12:12).
Satan grew angry with the woman to make war with the rest of her children (Rev 12:16).
For wickedness burns like a fire. It devours the briers and thorns . . . . people are the fuel for the fire (Isa 9:18-19). The believers are burned up and described as “a third of the trees and all the green grass” (see 7:1-3; 9:4).
This was originally part of Rev. 12 but was moved over to Rev 7:1-3; 9:4 as a means of parallel formation)


The first four Trumpets form a chiasmus with the four acts of Satan in Revelation. The chart below represents the story of Satan as Victorious (left column) and Satan as defeated in the right column.

Satan Defeated Satan Victorious
The Angel Holding Back the Four Winds (Rev 7:1-8)
  • The four angels that hold back the four winds (Rev 7:1-2).
  • So that they do not hurt the earth, sea, or trees until the 144,000 is sealed (Rev 7:3-8).
The Angel with Keys to the Abyss (Rev 20:1-4)
An angel sealed Satan in the abyss for 1,000 years (Rev 20:1-2).
So he cannot deceive the world (Rev 20:3-4).
Great Multitude is in Heaven (Rev 7:14-17)
  • They came from the great tribulation (Rev 7:14-7).
The First Resurrection (Rev 20:4-6)
  • The souls of those beheaded and those who did not worship the beast lived and reigned with Jesus for 1,000 years.
First Four Trumpets The Four Attacks by Satan
A. First Trumpet (Rev 8:7)
  • Hail and fire mixed with blood was thrown down to the earth. A third of the earth and trees burnt up and all the green grass.
  • From Ezek 5:2 where a “third part burns in the fire in the midst of the city.”
D' The woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and twelve stars, then came Satan who with his tail sweeps a third of the stars from the sky (Rev 12:1-6).
B. Second Trumpet (8:8-9)
A great burning mountain was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea became blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships destroyed.
From Ezek 5:2 where a third part was scattered to the wind
C'. There was a war in heaven and the one called the Great Dragon, the Old Serpent, the Devil, and Satan was kicked out of heaven with his angels to deceive the world (12:7-9).
C. Third Trumpet (8:10-1)
  • A great star fell from the sky, burning like a torch (Rev 8:10).
  • Turned a third of the rivers and springs bitter and many people died from the bitter waters (Rev 8:10-11).
B'. The serpent spewed out water from his mouth so that the woman might be carried with it but the earth opened and swallowed up the water (Rev 12:15-16).
D. Fourth Trumpet (Rev 8:12)
  • A third of the sun, moon, and stars were struck. They were darkened by day and night by a third.
  • From Ezek 5:2 where a third was struck with a sword.
A'. The dragon grew angry with the woman, and made war against her offspring who keeps God’s commandments and holds Jesus’ testimony (12:17).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fifth Trumpet (Rev 9:1-12)
  • An angel opens the keys to the abyss (Rev 9:1-2).
  • Their king is the angel from the king of the abyss (Rev 9:11).
  • Satan Released From His Prison (Rev 20:7)
  • He is released from the abyss (see 20:3, 7).
A Huge Army Is Assembled (Rev 9:13-9)
  • The four angels were freed to kill a third of mankind (Rev 9:15).
  • Their army was 200,000,000 (Rev 9:16).
  • The army used fire from their mouths to destroy and their tails to do damage (Rev 9:17-19).
Satan Gathers a Huge Army (Rev 20:7-10)
  • They are from the four corners of the earth (Rev 20:7).
  • Their numbers are like the sands of the sea (Rev 20:8).
  • They surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city (Rev 20:9).
  • Fire came down from heaven and destroyed them (Rev 20:9).
They Did Not Repent of Their Deeds (Rev 9:20-21)
  • The rest of humanity did not repent from their evil deeds (9:20-21).
The Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-5)
  • The dead were judged according to their works--these are the unbelievers and are thrown in the lake of fire.

What I am not showing are other parallels such as how Revelation incorporates Zechariah, and Ezekiel, into Revelation. How he formed a parallel between Revelation 12 and 17. Those texts added much for the content of Revelation and greatly changed the Isaiah text.
Last edited by klewis on Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:25 am

If you think that:
Satan has great wrath (Rev 12:12).
Satan grew angry with the woman to make war with the rest of her children (Rev 12:16).
...is based on :
God’s anger will not turn away (Isa 9:17).
...then accordingly you should conclude that YHWH is Satan. But I don't think that just Revelation is a Gnostic Marcionite text! Far from that!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:23 am

I would call attention on this point:
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:28 am
Another explanation of the origin of the crucifixion, one very interesting:

Ben has talked about the crucifixion as a servile supplicium by definition, since this form of death was applied to slaves in primis.

The translation of the Jewish word ébed (=servant), by the Greek word παῖς (child, young slave, Latin: puer) inspired the idea that the Messiah had to be of very humble condition.

He was the son (παῖς) of God, hence the slave of God (still a παῖς !), hence he had to die as a slave: i.e. crucified.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why crucifixion?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:18 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:23 am
I would call attention on this point:
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:28 am
Another explanation of the origin of the crucifixion, one very interesting:

Ben has talked about the crucifixion as a servile supplicium by definition, since this form of death was applied to slaves in primis.

The translation of the Jewish word ébed (=servant), by the Greek word παῖς (child, young slave, Latin: puer) inspired the idea that the Messiah had to be of very humble condition.

He was the son (παῖς) of God, hence the slave of God (still a παῖς !), hence he had to die as a slave: i.e. crucified.
I have added it. Thanks.
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