I am asking you for the reference. Where does Celsus say this?Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:59 pmwhat question?? One who says
no God or son of God has come down or will come down
Can only do that argument.
The argument is confuted by admitting that Jesus is not a god. Or he is a god but he never existed on earth.
Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
- Ben C. Smith
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
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- Ben C. Smith
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
Ah, it is in Against Celsus 5.2; I was looking in 4.2, quoted in the OP. You may well be correct here, Giuseppe. Celsus may be an unbeliever in any of the descending gods.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:03 pmI am asking you for the reference. Where does Celsus say this?Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:59 pmwhat question?? One who says
no God or son of God has come down or will come down
Can only do that argument.
The argument is confuted by admitting that Jesus is not a god. Or he is a god but he never existed on earth.
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- GakuseiDon
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
Celsus's words, as quoted by Origen, are against the Christian and Jewish God. Origen writes "The argument which Celsus employs against us and the Jews..." So yes, Celsus is only addressing the Christian and Jewish God.
Yes, and that is Origen's response: the same argument applies against the pagan gods, i.e. any god. But his response is NOT to the idea that "no gods have descended", but rather to "does 'the God who is over all things know what takes place among men, or does He not know?'"
To repeat what I wrote earlier: you may be right that Celsus believes no pagan god or son of a god descended to earth, but we can't tell from the text. We don't know what Celsus actually believed about the pagan gods. He might have believed a number of things. There was no orthodoxy to run afoul of. Gods were thought by pagans to be just humans deified, or daemons claiming to be gods, or allegories, or poetry, or some combination of those. The main criterion was the philosophical or metaphysical soundness of the idea. Celsus attacks Christianity by attacking its philosophical soundness. Origen often responds by saying that those attacks apply to pagan beliefs as well, then goes on to explain how Christianity successfully avoids those attacks.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
very a strange way to do so, by talking abstractly and generally about any god or son of god. Isn't it?GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:29 amSo yes, Celsus is only addressing the Christian and Jewish God.
Celsus would agree with Origen on this because it is just the his point: no god can descend on earth.Yes, and that is Origen's response: the same argument applies against the pagan gods, i.e. any god.
the Origen's apology doesn't count. What counts here are uniquely the Celsus's words reported by Origen.But his response is NOT to the idea that "no gods have descended", but rather to "does 'the God who is over all things know what takes place among men, or does He not know?'"
Usually, who does a so apodeictic peremptory abstract proposition:To repeat what I wrote earlier: you may be right that Celsus believes no pagan god or son of a god descended to earth, but we can't tell from the text.
no God or son of God has come down or will come down
...leaves very few doubts about what he is meaning, i.e. the following sillogism:
1) no god can descend.
2) Jesus is a god.
3) ergo Jesus can't descend.
But you are right on a point: What we don't know is if for Celsus the point 2 was true, if he believed that Jesus was really a god. Because if Jesus was not a god, then he could very well exist on earth according to the same Celsus's rules of game. It seems that for Celsus Jesus was not a god hence only by considering him as not a god he could accept the his earthly historicity. We don't know if Celsus considered as mere man also Attis, Osiris, etc. What we know as certain, is that if Attis (or Osiris) was a god for Celsus, then the his death happened in outer space.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
- GakuseiDon
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
Okay then, I'll quote Celsus to support my view that he was only talking about Christians and Jews about a god or son of a god who will descend and make the inhabitants of the earth righteous, and then you quote Celsus to say that about ANY pagan god or son of a god who will descend and make the inhabitants of the earth righteous.Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:05 amvery a strange way to do so, by talking abstractly and generally about any god or son of god. Isn't it?GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:29 amSo yes, Celsus is only addressing the Christian and Jewish God.
Here is my quote by Celsus:
Can I have your quote by Celsus, please?But that certain Christians and (all) Jews should maintain, the former that there has already descended, the latter that there will descend, upon the earth a certain God, or Son of a God, who will make the inhabitants of the earth righteous, is a most shameless assertion...
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
We have now, then, to refute that statement of his which runs as follows: O Jews and Christians, no God or son of a God either came or will come down (to earth). But if you mean that certain angels did so, then what do you call them? Are they gods, or some other race of beings? Some other race of beings (doubtless), and in all probability demons.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04165.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
Note that a very similar argument is made by Celsus also here, this time by the Jews themselves against the Christians:
(3:1)
It is strongly implicit that the Jews of the time ignored the historicity of Jesus. Something as: the Christ predicted by the Scriptures didn't come on the earth.
He gives it as his opinion, that the controversy between Jews and Christians is a most foolish one, and asserts that the discussions which we have with each other regarding Christ differ in no respect from what is called in the proverb, 'a fight about the shadow of an ass.' and thinks that there is nothing of importance in the investigations of the Jews and Christians: for both believe that it was predicted by the Divine Spirit that one was to come as a Saviour to the human race, but do not yet agree on the point whether the person predicted has actually come or not.
(3:1)
It is strongly implicit that the Jews of the time ignored the historicity of Jesus. Something as: the Christ predicted by the Scriptures didn't come on the earth.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
Again, Celsus is addressing Jews and Christians. And again, Origen responds by saying "this must apply to the pagan gods as well":Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:20 amWe have now, then, to refute that statement of his which runs as follows: O Jews and Christians, no God or son of a God either came or will come down (to earth). But if you mean that certain angels did so, then what do you call them? Are they gods, or some other race of beings? Some other race of beings (doubtless), and in all probability demons.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04165.htm
... we shall show that in asserting generally that no God, or son of God, ever descended (among men), he overturns not only the opinions entertained by the majority of mankind regarding the manifestation of Deity, but also what was formerly admitted by himself.
Origen believes that Celsus acknowledges Providence, which implies that gods work amongst men. The problem is this: Origen himself isn't sure about what Celsus believes with regards to the pagan gods. He thinks that Celsus is identified with an earlier Celsus the Epicurean, and so holds to Epicurean beliefs, but according to Origen Celsus makes arguments that contradict that notion.
To repeat what I said at the start: you may be right that Celsus also believed that no pagan god or son of a god ever descended to earth. But without knowing Celsus's views on the pagan gods in the first place, we just don't know. Origen himself isn't clear about Celsus's background beliefs.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
precisely. By doing an universal claim about any possible god and son of god, Christian and Pagan.
about which Celsus would agree fully. Again, we should ignore what Origen says. We are concerned about what Celsus says, here.And again, Origen responds by saying "this must apply to the pagan gods as well":
You are only partially correct, here. We can't know if Celsus denied the earthly existence in the past of Attis, for example. What we can know is that, if Celsus considered him as a god, then ipso facto Attis never lived on earth according to Celsus's clear claim. Any legend about an earthly Attis is virtually for Celsus a mere fiction to deceive the stupid hoi polloi about the true nature of Attis.The problem is this: Origen himself isn't sure about what Celsus believes with regards to the pagan gods. He thinks that Celsus is identified with an earlier Celsus the Epicurean, and so holds to Epicurean beliefs, but according to Origen Celsus makes arguments that contradict that notion.
To repeat what I said at the start: you may be right that Celsus also believed that no pagan god or son of a god ever descended to earth. But without knowing Celsus's views on the pagan gods in the first place, we just don't know. Origen himself isn't clear about Celsus's background beliefs.
You can apply easily the same Celsus's logic in the case of Jesus.
Hence Celsus is evidence of at least one person of Antiquity (himself) who believed that the true gods can exist and work only and uniquely in the heavens. Totally beyond if these true gods could or not direct the human actions from their heavens (as today the Christians believe that God directs the human actions by the his invisible providence from heaven).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Celsus: "no God or son of God has come down or will come down"
Thank you. That is my point, which was in response to your comment in your OP:
The answer is: we don't know, because Celsus doesn't detail his own views clearly. Origen isn't sure either. If Celsus was clearly an Epicurean and thought the gods were remote, Origen could have easily addressed that view in his responses. But because Celsus seemed to believe in some kind of providence, Origen wasn't sure what Celsus believed.Is Celsus a Zeus mythicist, an Attis mythicist, an Osiris mythicist, etc, just as he is a Jesus mythicist?
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse