Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:38 am


And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in grace with God and man.

(Luke 2:52)

Remember the meaning of "John": "It is YHWH who gives grace". The original hero of story was John, not Jesus (="It is YHWH who gives salvation").
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 am

Who could live often in the wilderness? Only John, not Jesus.


Luke 5:16:
But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.

Luke 1:80:
And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Nasruddin » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:28 am

Jesus withdrew to lonely places often (meaning he came back often).

John lived in the wilderness (meaning all the time) and only came back the one time (i.e 'until').

Giuseppe
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:34 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:28 am
Jesus withdrew to lonely places often (meaning he came back often).

John lived in the wilderness (meaning all the time) and only came back the one time (i.e 'until').
John is the prototype, here. Jesus is the clone.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Nasruddin » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:48 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:34 am
Nasruddin wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:28 am
Jesus withdrew to lonely places often (meaning he came back often).

John lived in the wilderness (meaning all the time) and only came back the one time (i.e 'until').
John is the prototype, here. Jesus is the clone.
John is the precursor. Jesus is the the one who comes after.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Charles Wilson » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:20 pm

John 1: 15 (RSV):

[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")

The John character is of Bilgah. The Jesus character is of Immer.

Giuseppe
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:04 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:48 pm
John is the precursor. Jesus is the the one who comes after.
please don't say a so stupid thing. Not in this thread. You are clearly talking as a Christian believer. The option "John precursor of Jesus" is absolutely not contemplated in this thread. I don't like the idea.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:02 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:04 pm
please don't say a so stupid thing. Not in this thread. You are clearly talking as a Christian believer. The option "John precursor of Jesus" is absolutely not contemplated in this thread. I don't like the idea.
Giuseppe dictating what others can and cannot say.

#BanGiuseppe

Giuseppe
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:12 am

Why, in the fourth gospel, the Paraclet is identified with the holy spirit, if the goal of the gospel was to contrast who based the his own gospel on the revelation by the holy spirit?

The solution of the enigma is that the Paraclet was in a first place only a real man (the leader of the sect of the author of the fourth gospel) and only later he was identified with the holy spirit.

So the message of proto-John was:

Just as John the Baptist is my precursor, so I (Jesus) am the precursor of mr Paraclete (a real historical man). Please stop your hallucinations.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:59 am

So the steps are the following:

1) Paul and the Pillars: Christ crucified in outer space. Worship of YHWH. Zero knowledge of a John the Baptist.

2) a lot of different revelations, visions, etc. Birth of Anti-YHWH sects.

3) some Jews (not Christians) invent a biography about John the Baptist as prophet of YHWH inspired by holy spirit.

4) proto-John: John is made precursor of Jesus Son of Father. Anti-YHWH. The OT prophets are thieves and robbers. The Paraclet is Marcion.

5) Mark and Matthew and Luke and our John: Jesus becomes son of YHWH. The Paraclet is the holy spirit but the time of revelations is closed with Jesus and the OT prophets. Invention of Barabbas ("Jesus Son of Father").

Now the problem is to detect evidence of the real origin of "John the Baptist", between (2) and (3).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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