Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist

[Joseph D. L.]

For what I am interested, the notice fo you is that it is not better than my "nonsense". Sorry.

Yeah, it is.

what idiocy is this? Barabbas was invented by Judaizers against the adorers of the Jesus Son of Father who was enemy of Torah and of the god who gave the torah. Period.

That makes zero sense. Barabbas has long been noted as an antagonistic polemic against Jews, yet you claim it represents Marcion's "Good God", the enemy of the god of the Torah. (Who routinely sends plagues and and punishments to his own chosen people?)

Then explain why they still have Jesus being the one who is selected for crucifixion? WHY DO THE JEWS CHOOSE BARABBAS OVER CHRIST??? That is why your idea fails, because it is completely antithetical to what any sane person would write if they had such motivations.

So under the your hypothesis of demential ditheism, an adorer of YHWH reduced YHWh Hakatan (?) to the status of murderer and rebel. Really?

It's not ditheism, because YHWH Hakatan acts on behalf of YHWH. Just as Satan acts on behalf of God. In the Old Testament, there is only one who prescribes good and evil, and that is YHWH.

So clearing up your complete failure to understand the most basic mechanics of this (you don't seem to know much of anything about Judaism), you don't even seem to be able to grasp what I actually said.

I never said that author had to be a worshiper of YHWH. It could have been a gentile or later Christian who hated YHWH as a murderous, bloodthirsty god (after all, that is what YOU say Marcion thought), or a Christian who blamed Jews for the death of their messiah. Either way, it makes better sense than anything you have ever said on the matter.

It makes better sense than what you pedal. (Barabbas, an overtly evil character, representing a God who is the Good... that sounds fucking stupid. Meanwhile, Marcionites argued that YHWH WAS evil, but it couldn't have been invent by them no could it?)

But since this isn't what I think is happening I don't see the need to continue responding to this subject. I'm done with it.

Advise me when a Catholic will reduce Saint Pius to a mere hallucinator.

About the time you'll be getting out of the psych ward.

Really is Barabbas worthy of worship for you ? REALLY???!

Is YHWH worthy of worship for you? REALLY???! I would say, no. And yet billions of people do to this day.

It would be equivalent to adore Hitler.

Godwin's Law. You have lost.

I give you a notice: to call someone a rebel and insurrectionist in I CE is equivalent today to call someone an "Hitler".

Jews followed rebels and believed them to be God's own all the time. Judah the Zealot mean anything to you? How about John of Giscala? The Egyptian and Johnathon the Weaver? How about Lukuas and bar Kochba? (Jesus himself even says that he brings a sword; and Moses killed as well). All of these men were murderers and rebels who led revolts that caused the deaths of an untold number of people. And yet they were still believed to be messiahs, chosen by God himself.

It doesn't matter what you think is right or wrong, Giuseppe. What matters is what people thought at the time.

I swear, man, you are the dumbest person I've ever encountered.

[Joseph D. L.]

Even Richard Carrier thinks Giuseppe is an unhinged, illogical lunatic.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/3910

[Giuseppe]

Then explain why they still have Jesus being the one who is selected for crucifixion? WHY DO THE JEWS CHOOSE BARABBAS OVER CHRIST???

because the marcionites claimed that the victim was on the cross was their Christ.

It's not ditheism, because YHWH Hakatan acts on behalf of YHWH. Just as Satan acts on behalf of God. In the Old Testament, there is only one who prescribes good and evil, and that is YHWH.

I give you a notice: nowhere we have evidence that Barabbas acts on behalf of the other Christ.

Hence there is not implicit alliance between the 2 of the kind you see between YHWH and the other deity you mention.

I am tired about you. You are evidently a troll because you could arrive alone to respond by yourself your stupid objections. I ask your ban.

Go distant.

[Joseph D. L.]

because the marcionites claimed that the victim was on the cross was their Christ.

So the "Judiazers" did Marcion's job for him.

This makes even less sense. So Barabbas AND Jesus are now both reconciled as the same entity in hypostasis in your head.

You are mentally inept. No wonder no body beliefs anything you say.

I give you a notice: nowhere we have evidence that Barabbas acts on behalf of the other Christ.

Nowhere do we have evidence that Barabbas was a proxy for Marcionism. Yet we do have evidence that Barabbas was equally regarded to Jesus because...

THEY WERE BOTH CALLED JESUS YOU DAMNABLE IDIOT.

Jesus Christ you are so stupid.

And you know what's even funnier? You are saying exactly the same thing. You are saying that Barabbas "acts on behalf of Jesus", because you are claiming that the "Judiazers" invented Barabbas as a proxy for Marcion.

Notice how you just completely ignored the many other men of God who killed in his name. Too inconvenient I guess.

Hence there is not implicit alliance between the 2 of the kind you see between YHWH and the other deity you mention.

Oh my fucking god...

So a god who rains down death and destruction at the behest of a higher god cannot in anyway, shape, or form be regarded as being equivocal to Barabbas?

Whatever you say jefe.

I am tired about you. You are evidently a troll because you could arrive alone to respond by yourself your stupid objections. I ask your ban.

Your English is as bad as your ideas.

Kirby doesn't ban people simply because you ask for it. (I know. I tried.)

Go distant.

!Me cachis en el leche de puta de madre!

[Giuseppe]

because the marcionites claimed that the victim was on the cross was their Christ.

So the "Judiazers" did Marcion's job for him.

This makes even less sense. So Barabbas AND Jesus are now both reconciled as the same entity in hypostasis in your head.

really you are not understanding at all.

See the process:

Marcion: my Christ was crucified really.

The inventor (Judaizer) of the Barabbas episode, addressing Marcion: your Christ was not crucified, because your Christ was released by Pilate. My Christ was crucified.

Is it more clear now?

[Joseph D. L.]

really you are not understanding at all.

See the process:

Marcion: my Christ was crucified really.

The inventor (Judaizer) of the Barabbas episode, addressing Marcion: your Christ was not crucified, because your Christ was released by Pilate. My Christ was crucified.

Is it more clear now?

No, that is not more clear. In fact it shows just how asinine your ideas are, because 1) it is contrary to what Marcion actually believed, and 2) the supposed invention of Barabbas in no way can be comparable to Marcion, and actually accomplished the exact opposite of what it would have been meant for.

And the reason your claim doesn't make sense is because it is THE JEWS calling for Barabbas's release, not the gentile Romans.

Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the crowd any one prisoner whom they wanted. And they had then a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. So when they had gathered, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release for you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” For he knew that it was out of envy that they had delivered him up. Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.” Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. The governor again said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release for you?” And they said, “Barabbas.” Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all said, “Let him be crucified!” And he said, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they shouted all the more, “Let him be crucified!”

Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked. And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barabbas. And the crowd came up and began to ask Pilate to do as he usually did for them. And he answered them, saying, “Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?” For he perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release for them Barabbas instead. And Pilate again said to them, “Then what shall I do with the man you call the King of the Jews?” And they cried out again, “Crucify him.” And Pilate said to them, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they shouted all the more, “Crucify him.” So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

Pilate then called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was misleading the people. And after examining him before you, behold, I did not find this man guilty of any of your charges against him. Neither did Herod, for he sent him back to us. Look, nothing deserving death has been done by him. I will therefore punish and release him.” But they all cried out together, “Away with this man, and release to us Barabbas”— a man who had been thrown into prison for an insurrection started in the city and for murder. Pilate addressed them once more, desiring to release Jesus, but they kept shouting, “Crucify, crucify him!” A third time he said to them, “Why? What evil has he done? I have found in him no guilt deserving death. I will therefore punish and release him.” But they were urgent, demanding with loud cries that he should be crucified. And their voices prevailed. So Pilate decided that their demand should be granted. He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, for whom they asked, but he delivered Jesus over to their will.

After he had said this, he went back outside to the Jews and told them, “I find no guilt in him. But you have a custom that I should release one man for you at the Passover. So do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?” They cried out again, “Not this man, but Barabbas!” Now Barabbas was a robber.

But they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas: (one who for a certain insurrection made in the city, and for murder, had been cast into prison.) Pilate therefore spake again to them, wishing to release Jesus. But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath this man done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. But they were urgent with loud voices, asking that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed. And Pilate gave sentence that their request should be done. And he released unto them him that for insurrection and murder had been cast into prison, whom they were asking for; but Jesus he delivered up to their will.

In all instances, it is the Jews that demand Barabbas's release. That alone is enough to disprove your arguments.

And as an add on, it is believed the Barabbas episode was included to conform to the sin offering statute of Leviticus 16, which you even had to address separately and dismiss obstinately, because it is too inconvenient for you.

Everything is against you. Your ideas are insipid, your arguments are a joke. You're an idiotic spammer who has zero education in this field. When you die, I am thankful that your ideas will die with you.

[Giuseppe]

it is contrary to what Marcion actually believed,

it has to be necessarily contrary, i.e. against Marcion. It is called "sarcastic parody". His crucified Son of Father is ridiculed by being reduced to a not-crucified robber bastard son of unknown.

and 2) the supposed invention of Barabbas in no way can be comparable to Marcion

again: it is an invention made against Marcion.

And the reason your claim doesn't make sense is because it is THE JEWS calling for Barabbas's release, not the gentile Romans.

I don't see an objection in this. The Jews crucified their Christ. This is still anti-marcionite in nature. Is not it?

The two goats in Leviticus 16 are both beautiful. There is not dualism and contrast between them along the lines innocence/crime. At contrary of Barabbas/Jesus.

[Joseph D. L.]

it has to be necessarily contrary, i.e. against Marcion. It is called "sarcastic parody". His crucified Son of Father is ridiculed by being reduced to a not-crucified robber bastard son of unknown.

You continue to make absolutely no sense. You live in a world where logic means nothing, and causal relations no longer apply.

Marcion's conception was of a Good God higher than the god of the Jews. According to the Orthodox and "Marcionite" texts like Antithesis, Marcion believed YHWH was a murderer who drowned the world, and was a thief who stole the treasures of conquered nations. If it's a parody of anything it is a Marcionite parody of YHWH.

And then the Jews just allow their Christ to be crucified for laughs...

Seriously you are stupid.

again: it is an invention made against Marcion.

Repeating something over and over does not make it true.

I don't see an objection in this. The Jews crucified their Christ. This is still anti-marcionite in nature. Is not it?

No, it isn't, as 1) Marcion was Jewish in his theological structure, 2) the Romans are the ones who crucify Christ, and 3) it can't be anti-Marcion because it portrays Jews as rejecting their messiah. Again, you are failing to understand that basic premise, even when your argument is necessitated on it. THE JEWS STILL DEMAND THE RELEASE OF BARABBAS OVER THEIR CHRIST, WHOM THEY HAVE REJECTED.

I swear you have the comprehension of a certain orange president. Everything you say is backwards and I am legit starting to believe you are mentally retarded.

The two goats in Leviticus 16 are both beautiful. There is not dualism and contrast between them along the lines innocence/crime. At contrary of Barabbas/Jesus.

Beautiful is in the eye of the beholder, Giuseppe. Indeed, the scapegoat must take on the sins (and murder and robbery are sins according to the Torah) of the tribe, so that makes Barabbas, a thief and a murderer, the perfect scapegoat.

[Joseph D. L.]

So Jews demand the release of Barabbas and call for the death of their Christ...

... and it is the Romans, the gentiles, who carry out the execution.

No. This is entirely a Marcionite belief. Not a "judiazer" "parody" of Marcion.

Logic, 2 + 2 = 4

Giuseppe, 2 + 2 = banana fish

[Giuseppe]

I don't see an objection in this. The Jews crucified their Christ. This is still anti-marcionite in nature. Is not it?

No, it isn't,

you are wrong on this. The Catholics say that the Jews crucified their (=of the Jews) Christ. Marcion said that the Jews crucified an alien (=not of the Jews) Christ.

Beautiful is in the eye of the beholder, Giuseppe. Indeed, the scapegoat must take on the sins (and murder and robbery are sins according to the Torah) of the tribe, so that makes Barabbas, a thief and a murderer, the perfect scapegoat.

the anti-Jewish Marcion denied all the Torah.