Mark is first, give him his due translation.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Martin Klatt
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due translation.

Post by Martin Klatt » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:15 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due then.

Post by Charles Wilson » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:51 am

So, does everyone (besides me) think that "The woman with the Twelve Year Issue of Blood" and "Jairus' Daughter" are simply Coincidence? The appearance of "Twelve Years" in both Stories are concatenations of words that happen to have "12 years" in them?

Martin Klatt
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due translation.

Post by Martin Klatt » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:14 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:41 am, edited 11 times in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due then.

Post by Charles Wilson » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:58 am

Thank you, Martin.

1. I believe that this is Political, covering a time of 12 years between two events in Jewish History beginning at Passover 4 BCE - but you know that concerning my Positions.

2. You might want to look at Mark 6: 56 as well:

[56] And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or country, they laid the sick in the market places, and besought him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment; and as many as touched it were made well.

Compare with Mark 5: 26:

[27] She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."

The Mark 5 Section is very personal, including references to Internal States and Internal Dialogues. The Mark 6 Story is Objective-Descriptive.
Why?

All we can ask for is Consistency and Completeness and the two Stories of the Woman and Jairus' Daughter may be about Initiation Rites of Women in that society. They both point to something deeper. You may be correct.

Best,

CW

Martin Klatt
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due translation.

Post by Martin Klatt » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:46 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due then.

Post by Charles Wilson » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:53 am

Then there is "The Woman Bent Over for Eighteen Years":

Luke 13: 11 - 13, 16 (RSV, truncated to show the Logical Point):

[11] And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
[12] And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
[13] And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and she praised God.
***
[16] And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"

This appears to be of the same Form as the Markan Passages. It still exhibits an Objective-Descriptive Pattern - No internal Dialogues - but notice the Rhetorical Flourish! She is a Daughter of Abraham AND she has been bound by Satan for eighteen years! Is this Symbolic-Historical?

I trace this Story to 8/9 CE as well, with the finishing of the Cloisters in 10 BCE. Herod opens the Temple on the day of the anniversary of his ascension. Herod establishes a festival. You worship God and Herod on the same day. This, therefore, is another Herod story.

OK. Fine.

For present purposes, does the Lukan Passage fit in with your Thesis?


Best to you,

CW

Edit Note: My obligation to a friend who encouraged me to put in EVERYTHING in my writings when something pops into my head forces me to state that "...a daughter of Abraham..." may also be a Lukan Flourish that would distinguish Luke from the more pedestrian Mark, a possibly stylistic gesture of Luke.

Martin Klatt
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due translation.

Post by Martin Klatt » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:24 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due then.

Post by Charles Wilson » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:13 pm

Martin Klatt wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:24 am
The man with the withered hand on a sabbath joke is hilarious, because the synagogue attendants are closely observing if Jesus will treat him on a sabbath in order to condemn him, but Jesus turns the joke on them because he doesn't lift a finger but instead he orders the man to show his hand and there is nothing wrong with it. He was just a lazy slacker, pretending. This is a story of a lazy person combined with the sabbath rest, where you are supposed to all refrain from work anyway, so why would you heal a hand that can't work today? And Jesus outwitting his opponents en passant criticizing their take on sabbath. It is all brilliant wordplay.
He says to them: Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it? And afterward the Pharisees go out to plot how to destroy him! Pure genius punchline to close.
Note that these are all "Do-Ables". See also Turton here ( http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark09.html#9X ):
Seeing the Gospel of Mark as a performed text may also explain some other aspects of the story. For example, the writer's vague geography and lack of geographical description and detail may reflect the expectation that those items would be presented visually. All the writer had to do was give some general idea of the location of incidents: a synagogue, a lonely place, the other side, in the house, and so on. The set crew would do the rest. Further, none of Jesus' miracles represent actions that would have been physically difficult or materially complicated and expensive to portray on stage. Jesus doesn't fly, move mountains, cast lightning, or transform one object into another. Instead, the blind see, the lame walk, demons leave their hosts, and a fig tree wilts. Clearly, the Gospel of Mark could easily be staged by a non-professional cast and crew on short notice, with a minimum of sets and equipment." [Emphasis added]
From a more Roman Perspective, this makes sense. The Judaic Messianism is a sham since the "Miracles" and "Healings" are easy set-ups against the gullible and superstitious Jews. (Another "One-Thing-Leads-to-Another:" See Josephus and the "Overturning of the Bowl of Water").

Edit Note:
Josephus, Antiquities..., 8, 2, 5:
And he left behind him the manner of using exorcisms, by which they drive away demons, so that they never return; and this method of cure is of great force unto this day; for I have seen a certain man of my own country, whose name was Eleazar, releasing people that were demoniacal in the presence of Vespasian, and his sons, and his captains, and the whole multitude of his soldiers. The manner of the cure was this: He put a ring that had a Foot of one of those sorts mentioned by Solomon to the nostrils of the demoniac, after which he drew out the demon through his nostrils; and when the man fell down immediately, he abjured him to return into him no more, making still mention of Solomon, and reciting the incantations which he composed. And when Eleazar would persuade and demonstrate to the spectators that he had such a power, he set a little way off a cup or basin full of water, and commanded the demon, as he went out of the man, to overturn it, and thereby to let the spectators know that he had left the man; and when this was done, the skill and wisdom of Solomon was shown very manifestly...

Martin Klatt
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Re: Mark is first, give him his due translation.

Post by Martin Klatt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:39 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Charles Wilson
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Mark is first, give him his due then.

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:05 am

Of Galba:

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Galba":
Accordingly his [Galba's] coming was not so welcome as it might have been, and this was apparent at the first performance in the theatre; for when the actors of an Atellan farce began the familiar lines

"Here comes Onesimus from his farm"36

all the spectators at once finished the song in chorus and repeated it several times with appropriate gestures, beginning with that verse.
Note 36: "The text is uncertain, but obviously the song ridiculed a stingy old countryman."
The performance in front of Vespasian carries with it some deeper meanings. "Eleazar" is the Major Patriarch in the Mishmarot Priesthood, Eleazar's "House" holds 16 of the 24 Priestly Groups (1 Chronicles 24). "Jehoiarib", the first of the Groups in the 1 Chronicles 24 version, carries the Assignment of the Hasmonean Dynasty (Though the 16th, "Immer", also claims the Hasmoneans.). The Hasmoneans are a Threat to Roman Rule, in the Judean Province and elsewhere.

Performing for the Conquerors is an old device. A String Quartet of midgets performed one last time in front of the National Socialist Leaders before being led away to the gas chambers. Being seen by the Generals - in this case, Vespasian - has always been important, Zakkai being a most important example. Sometimes it works in reverse: Zakkai was questioned by one of Vespasian's generals about the strange math in the Book of Numbers. There always seems to be one stage of compression too many in these stories. "Something is left out".

Anyway, the uneasiness of looking over the shoulder and seeing all of this as a Roman Joke complicates the picture immensely. Was this a Play? A coded Joke written by Scholars in the Roman Court? I believe that there were Coded Texts put in by survivors of Destruction of the Temple, probably from Yavneh.

Could such a complicated Construction have occurred in the Aftermath of the Destruction?

"Here comes Onesimus from his farm..."

"Uh-Oh. Here come the farm animal jokes..."

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