A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
maryhelena
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by maryhelena » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:55 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:26 am
maryhelena wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:39 pm
18 c.e. for Pilate's rule [commencing] in Judaea - is a date that has the potential to bring the Jesus historicists to their ground zero ...
How? Why? b/c it means
  • Jesus had to have been killed by Pilate earlier than proposed?
  • John can't have been killed before Jesus??, or
  • both ???
??? nothing is clear in any post in this thread other than

.
... at least one of the following three propositions must be false:

1. Jesus died ca. 29–33 CE.
2. John the Baptist died ca. 35–36 CE.
3. John the Baptist died earlier than Jesus.
.

The time of commencement of Pilate's rule in Judea doesn't come into that.
1. Jesus died ca. 29–33 CE. = according to gLuke and its 15th year of Tiberius story.

2. John the Baptist died ca. 35–36 CE. = according to Antiquities book 18 ch.5

3. John the Baptist died earlier than Jesus = Antiquities book 18 ch.3. and 18 ch. 5 do not support the gospel story that JtB died prior to Jesus.

And that is the point made in the article referenced at the beginning of this thread - I suggest that you re-read it.

As to Pilate being in Judaea in 18 c.e. - this early dating has impact upon the Jesus crucifixion story of the gospel of Luke and it's 15th year of Tiberius. A gospel story that has JtB executed prior to the crucifixion of it's Jesus figure.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

perseusomega9
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:47 am

Conclusion

As has been stated at the beginning of this paper, at least one of the following
three propositions must be false:

1. Jesus died ca. 29–33 CE.
2. John the Baptist died ca. 35–36 CE.
3. John the Baptist died earlier than Jesus.
Sine Jesus being crucified under Pilate makes it into early creeds, this tells us that there were others in the "in" group that said he wasn't crucified under Pilate, so this is all a bunch of nothing you're worrying about with your trilemma
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

maryhelena
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by maryhelena » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:15 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:47 am
Conclusion

As has been stated at the beginning of this paper, at least one of the following
three propositions must be false:

1. Jesus died ca. 29–33 CE.
2. John the Baptist died ca. 35–36 CE.
3. John the Baptist died earlier than Jesus.
Sine Jesus being crucified under Pilate makes it into early creeds, this tells us that there were others in the "in" group that said he wasn't crucified under Pilate, so this is all a bunch of nothing you're worrying about with your trilemma
Well now, if 'this is all a bunch of nothing' why bother to read it?

It is pretty obvious, from the above quoted links, that many people find the subject interesting enough to spend their time writing about it.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

perseusomega9
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:33 am

Oh so do I, perhaps I wasn't clear enough and let me rephrase, you have to add more options than just those three, such as Jesus not being crucified by Pilate
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

maryhelena
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by maryhelena » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:39 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:33 am
Oh so do I, perhaps I wasn't clear enough and let me rephrase, you have to add more options than just those three, such as Jesus not being crucified by Pilate
OK - got your point. However, the only way that I can see for a 'Jesus' crucifixion without Pilate is to view the gospel Jesus figure as a literary creation (which I do). In which case its open season on Roman crucifixions, executions, on all those seditious characters in Hasmonean history.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

perseusomega9
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:21 am

I think the alternative to not crucified by Pilate was killed by the Jews.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

perseusomega9
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:22 am

well, it's the main competing alternative, i'm very open to literary creation Jesus myself as well.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

maryhelena
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by maryhelena » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:39 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:21 am
I think the alternative to not crucified by Pilate was killed by the Jews.
The Jews wanted Jesus killed.......too much blood guilt on that argument over the centuries. Rather than just read Jews - just add 'Herodian' in from of it. Herodian Jews wanted the gospel Jesus dead......thats a very different kettle of fish.... ;)

If one goes with Greg Doudna's argument re JtB.....i.e. JtB having a Hasmonean connection - then Herod (Antipas) was living in fear of the Hasmoneans and any resurgence of their seditious ways. His fear, re the gospel story that JtB had come back to life - a nightmare scenario that Herod I must have lived with for all his days...
Last edited by maryhelena on Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

maryhelena
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by maryhelena » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:40 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:22 am
well, it's the main competing alternative, i'm very open to literary creation Jesus myself as well.
:thumbup:
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

davidmartin
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM

Post by davidmartin » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:52 am

It stands to reason that even if Jesus was killed by Jews that most of his followers, his supporters and he himself was Jewish
Therefore it's obvious that only a subset within the hierarchy of his society was responsible in that scenario
Thus it's utterly false and misleading to suggest he was killed by his own people and not a particular subset of them
All of this is totally obvious and transparent in all the sources available
So I don't understand anyone who says Jesus was killed by the Jews as if this is a rational argument

Post Reply