Giuseppe wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:24 pm
Charles Wilson wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:24 pm
I agree generally to the Interpolation charge.
simple agreement doesn't suffice. I want to know
why precisely you think that the Baptist Passage is an interpolation.
The Time Line and the Statements give a completely different STORY to John. As I said:
I agree generally to the Interpolation charge. The problem is to figure the Story once you filter out the Interpolation:
Matthew 11: 11 (Moffatt):
[11] I tell you truly, no one has arisen among the sons of women who is greater than John the Baptist, and yet the least in the Realm of heaven is greater than he is.
The least in the "Realm of Heaven" is greater than John because John is dead.
This is the Story and I believe that this is at the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. The Passages of the child Peter saving the Priest give evidence to the event: "Enter through the Narrow Door...". "You must turn as a child to enter the Realm of heaven" (A real, physical place). The Scribes and Pharisees prevent MEN from entering the Realm of Heaven, and lest we forget:
Matthew 10: 39 - 42 (RSV):
[39] He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.
[40] "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.
[41] He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
[42] And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."
This appears to be from the Second Story, the one at the 9 CE Passover. It is Peter, from 12 years later, looking back to 4 BCE.
One of the John Stories ends here, at the 4 BCE Passover. The story in Josephus cannot be Priestly and John was Priestly, of Bilgah.
Josephus,
Antiquities..., 18, 5, 2:
"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism;
for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that
the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him..."
This is an interesting Indirection. "Baptism" in this passage doesn't eliminate all "Sin" but stands for the Purification of the Body. "...the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness...". I suppose that Apologetix
(R) could clean this up but it is not Judaic thought. "Baptism" carries a different meaning at times and the use of "Soul" from Hasmonean Josephus doesn't sound correct.
The Time Line is all wrong, the Thought is all wrong.
Interpolation.
CW
[Edit Note:] Lest
I forget, the other NT definition of "Baptism" is given in the above passage:
"...Herod, who feared lest the great influence
John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late..."
Compare with the Youth in the Linen Garment in Mark. Thackeray has this (at the Temple Atrocity of 4 BCE) as the Priests obtaining recruits for their faction ",...in a body of the temple". (Also, could anyone other than Priests recruit in the Temple?). The Josephan passage above cannot be correct. There was Revolution brewing at the death of Herod and the rewrites of this Violence must be rewritten to moderate that Threat.