Paul Had Tattoos

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul Had Tattoos

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:56 pm

Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:59 am
Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 am
But we have no hint of Jesus ever being a slave in any form in any of the texts that we have.
To back peddle this statement a bit. David Bentley Hart in his New Testament has Philippians 2:6-8 as "Who, subsisting in God's form, did not deem being on equal terms with God a thing to be grasped, but instead emptied himself, taking a slave's form, coming to be in a likeness of human beings; and, being found as a human being in shape, he reduced himself, becoming obedient all the way to death, and a death by a cross."
You may be interested in a conjecture of mine in a post from a while back about Jesus being a slave, bolstered by evidence from another post and given some follow-up in yet another. Oh, and another again which depends on the basic observation.

ETA: 1 Peter 2.13-24 discussing Christ's attitude and behavior in the context of masters and slaves (instead of the immediately preceding context of kings and subjects) especially strikes my eye as a parallel to Paul discussing Jesus' attitude and behavior in terms of him being a slave.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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robert j
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Re: Paul Had Tattoos

Post by robert j » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:58 pm

Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:08 am

If you have the time, I would be very interested in what the legal terms you mentioned are.
robert j wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:47 am

... Paul employed some legalisms in his letters, terms typically used in legal documents ...
Lane,

Since I used a question from you to introduce my post, I can certainly take the time to provide an example before I'm 'out-of-here', though off-topic to this thread.

Now the One having prepared us for this very purpose is God, having given to us the pledge (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 5:5)

ἀρραβῶνα: This Greek term is of Hebrew/Semitic origin, perhaps originally borrowed by the Greeks from the Phoenicians. The term was typically used in commercial and legal documents for a down-payment or earnest money.

This commercial use is found in the LXX in Genesis 38:17-20.

The term is found only 3 times in the NT --- 2 times by Paul (2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5), and once by the Paulinist author of Ephesians (1:14). Paul used the term in a figurative sense, and the author of Ephesians followed suit. Though the Greek term is primarily found from ancient times in commercial/legal documents for a down-payment in a transaction, the use of the term in a figurative sense is not entirely unknown in pre-Pauline texts.

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Jax
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Re: Paul Had Tattoos

Post by Jax » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:19 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:56 pm
Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:59 am
Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 am
But we have no hint of Jesus ever being a slave in any form in any of the texts that we have.
To back peddle this statement a bit. David Bentley Hart in his New Testament has Philippians 2:6-8 as "Who, subsisting in God's form, did not deem being on equal terms with God a thing to be grasped, but instead emptied himself, taking a slave's form, coming to be in a likeness of human beings; and, being found as a human being in shape, he reduced himself, becoming obedient all the way to death, and a death by a cross."
You may be interested in a conjecture of mine in a post from a while back about Jesus being a slave, bolstered by evidence from another post and given some follow-up in yet another. Oh, and another again which depends on the basic observation.

ETA: 1 Peter 2.13-24 discussing Christ's attitude and behavior in the context of masters and slaves (instead of the immediately preceding context of kings and subjects) especially strikes my eye as a parallel to Paul discussing Jesus' attitude and behavior in terms of him being a slave.
Thanks for those links Ben they made for enjoyable reading this morning.

I kind of like Giuseppe's suggestion of the crucifixion being necessitated because Jesus being the son of God was the slave of God by the standards of that time and it seems that at least some early Christians may have thought that as well data mining Isaiah for their source.

Was that Paul's position? Because of the possible interpolations we can't really say and once again we are stymied by this uncertainty.

It's a drag.

Lane

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Jax
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Re: Paul Had Tattoos

Post by Jax » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:24 pm

robert j wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:58 pm
Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:08 am

If you have the time, I would be very interested in what the legal terms you mentioned are.
robert j wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:47 am

... Paul employed some legalisms in his letters, terms typically used in legal documents ...
Lane,

Since I used a question from you to introduce my post, I can certainly take the time to provide an example before I'm 'out-of-here', though off-topic to this thread.

Now the One having prepared us for this very purpose is God, having given to us the pledge (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 5:5)

ἀρραβῶνα: This Greek term is of Hebrew/Semitic origin, perhaps originally borrowed by the Greeks from the Phoenicians. The term was typically used in commercial and legal documents for a down-payment or earnest money.

This commercial use is found in the LXX in Genesis 38:17-20.

The term is found only 3 times in the NT --- 2 times by Paul (2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5), and once by the Paulinist author of Ephesians (1:14). Paul used the term in a figurative sense, and the author of Ephesians followed suit. Though the Greek term is primarily found from ancient times in commercial/legal documents for a down-payment in a transaction, the use of the term in a figurative sense is not entirely unknown in pre-Pauline texts.
Interesting, thank you Robert.

If you have the inclination to start a thread on the legalisms in Paul's letters I would happily contribute to it.

Lane

robert j
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Re: Paul Had Tattoos

Post by robert j » Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:52 am

robert j wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:58 pm

robert j wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:47 am

... Paul employed some legalisms in his letters, terms typically used in legal documents ...

Now the One having prepared us for this very purpose is God, having given to us the pledge (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 5:5)

ἀρραβῶνα: This Greek term is of Hebrew/Semitic origin, perhaps originally borrowed by the Greeks from the Phoenicians. The term was typically used in commercial and legal documents for a down-payment or earnest money.

This commercial use is found in the LXX in Genesis 38:17-20.
Just a brief follow-up here on this soap-opera like wider passage in the LXX in Genesis 38. The passage can be seen as both tragic and somewhat funny to modern readers, and provides a very good example of the typical use of the Greek ἀρραβῶνα (arrabon) in ancient times.

To make a long story short and focus on the portion in which the term in question is found, Judah son of Jacob had an itch to scratch. He approached a woman he believed to be a prostitute (πόρνην, pornen, Genesis 38:15) to solicit her services. The women was actually his daughter-in-law, but he didn’t recognize her because she wore a veil.

Judah said I’ll give you a goat if you “let me stick it to you” (... εασόν με εισελθείν προς σε ..., Genesis 38:16-17).

Only Judah didn’t have a goat on him at the time, so the woman demanded “earnest money” (ἀρραβῶνα, arrabon, Genesis 38:17). She asked for a deposit of Judah’s ring, his pendant, and his staff for her to keep until the payment of the goat is made. With the earnest money, with Judah’s deposit (ἀρραβῶνα, arrabon) in hand, he had his way with her (Genesis 38:18). The story goes-on with the daughter-in-law getting pregnant by Judah and having twins. But at this point, the story can be summarized as --- Judah had to make a deposit to make a deposit.

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