'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

Post by Secret Alias »

Come on. Plato invented the term demiurgos? Give me a break. Suggesting that is even possible is only the result of not thinking.. The ancient people had to have had craftsmen. Its like wondering if Christians invented Judaism. Does anyone around here espouse that position? There were never any Jews before Paul? Sounds like a position looking for an advocate at earlychristianwritings.com. Any takers?
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MrMacSon
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:07 pm Come on. Plato invented the term demiurgos? Give me a break.
I got my wire's crossed. I've edited and changed what I originally wrote (not that I owe you an apology. Now fuck off).
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MrMacSon
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

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The philosophies of a first century AD/CE neoPythagorean like Moderatus, a Middle Platonists like Plutarch, or a combined neoPythagorean and middle Platonism like Numenius (c.160 AD/CE), may have had some influence at least on theology of the both early Christianity and 'Gnosticism' (for want of a better word).

It's said Moderatus may have had some influence on the formation of the Alexandrian School of Philosophy. Stobaeus' Eclogae preserves a fragment of his writings; further extracts survive in the form of quotations in Porphyry's Life of Pythagoras and Simplicius's commentary on Aristotle's Physics.

Various Middle Platonists were writing about various notions of gods in the 2nd century. Theon of Smyrna {f. 100 c.e) wrote a mathematical introduction to Plato. Apuleius (c. 125), a popular writer, expounded an eclectic Platonism in his books On the God of Socrates and On Plato and his Doctrine. Gaius was a 2nd century teacher of Platonist philosophy. His pupil, Albinus, wrote an account of his lectures. Alcinous postulated three principles: the first God; the ideas, which are regarded as thoughts of the 'first God'; and matter.

Both Plutarch and Numenius considered and wrote about the soul and its components and their association with matter.

The works of Numenius were noteworthy enough to have been testimonies preserved by various writiers, including Church Fathers Origen and Eusebius, though some classified him as a Platonist philosopher (Porphyry, Life of Plot. 14.12, Eusebius, Prep. Ev. XI.21.7), and considered him a Pythagorean (Origen, Against Celsus I.15, VI.51, V.38 frs. 1b–1c, 53, Porphyry, Ad Gaurum 34.20–35.2; fr. 36, Calcidius, In Timaeum 297.8).

Sethianism may have started as a pre-Christian tradition, as earlier Sethian texts such as Apocalypse of Adam show signs of being pre-Christian and focus on the Seth of the Jewish bible (It has been postulated to be a syncretic Hebrew Mediterranean baptismal movement from the Jordan Valley, with Babylonian and Egyptian pagan elements, and elements from Hellenic philosophy).

Sethianism and the Valentinianism incorporated elements of Hellenic philosophy, including elements from Plato, Middle Platonism and Neo-Pythagoreanism. Whether they incorporated Christian elements or were the forerunner for Christianity can be debated. Later Sethian texts continued to reflect Platonism; and texts such as Zostrianos and Allogenes drew on the imagery of older Sethian texts, utilizing "a large fund of philosophical conceptuality derived from contemporary Platonism, (that is late middle Platonism) with no traces of Christian content."

In the early 3rd century NeoPlatonism evolved with Plotinius. Sethianism came under attack from him and others such as Porphyry and Amelius and is said to have fragmented into smaller virtual non-entities as a result.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

Post by Secret Alias »

So you proved you're not an idiot. Remember I had just dealt with an idiot - Giuseppe - who basically said - (a) gnostic means some bullshit about an evil Demiurge and (b) I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. I am sorry if I came off rude. These discussions form in my brain at least in a continuous flow information. I don't get why people find concepts so difficult:

1. the 20th century theosophists WANTED TO pass off their idiotic teachings as having ancient precursors.
2. they started this understanding of 'gnostic' to mean something like kabbalah.

It's plain when you look at Clement's use of the terminology IT CAN'T MEAN SECRET. The knowledge that the gnostics were bringing people into acquaintance with was secret. Ok. But gnostic just means the capacity for that knowledge. I am/was capable of secret knowledge. We are/were capable of that secret knowledge. I wonder if it would be more helpful to translate it as 'knowledgic' or 'knowledgical' to get the underlying sense.

UPDATE it seems some people have tried to coin this as a word https://www.techknowledgical.com/ Maybe it's urban slang? https://books.google.com/books?id=lywEA ... al&f=false Anyway it seems to be a word https://books.google.com/books?id=Hr4KA ... BXoECAIQAg "Even in translations of Platonic treatises Voulgaris proves that Dogmatism is an absurd theory , since it maintains that man has an unlimited knowledgical ability , a phrase which cannot be confirmed by reality" https://books.google.com/books?id=airnA ... BnoECAMQAg
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Geocalyx
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

Post by Geocalyx »

Theosophists & Crowley et al are the worst lot. But I'd rather say I see no distinctive word in English between "knowing something" and "knowing someone", which ends up in lots of confusion when dealing with this. The knowledge 'gnosis' described does not appear to be static, towards Infinity it's more like "awareness".

It's impossible to know all about God. It's possible to know him, still.

The word as used in NHC appears to me as a counter to faith. A pious man might say "I believe God exists", while the 'gnostic' is all "I know God exists". The latter's ends up looking like an atheist, but really isn't.
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MrMacSon
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:30 am I didn't post that excerpt b/c the title was about apostles or to focus on apostles, rather to capture a summary of Price's views on so-called Gnosticism, but I came across the Hypostasis of the Archons, aka the Reality of the Rulers, and the reference to 'the great apostle' in the first sentence.

.
5. The Original Gnostic Apostles

Walter Schmithals argues[1] that the concept of an apostle ... grew up in oriental Gnosticism ....
  1. Walter Schmithals, The Office of Apostle in the Early Church, trans. John E. Steely (New York: Abingdon, 1969), 114-97.


The Hypostasis of the Archons, aka the Reality of the Rulers, begins with reference to the great apostle, inspired by the 'spirit of the father of truth' -

On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle – referring to the "authorities of the darkness" – told us that "our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the universe and the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you inquire about the reality of the authorities. http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html

FWIW -
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:03 pm I've reproduced Earl Doherty's thoughts on the Shepherd of Hermas from his "Jesus: Neither God Nor Man" ...

Page 271

Hermas treats the "church," the body of believers, as a mystical entity. It is God himself who has created the church (Vision 1, 1:6), including its pre-existent prototype in heaven. There is constant reference to the "elect of God," with no tradition about a church established by Jesus. Nothing which could fit the Gospel ministry is referred to. The writer can speak of "apostles" but never associate them with an historical figure who appointed them; there is no tradition of anything going back to such a figure.Instead, "apostles and teachers preach the name of the Son of God" (Parable 9, 16:5), in the same way that Paul and other Christian prophets preach the divine Christ. [/#efe]

Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
davidmartin
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

Post by davidmartin »

Mr MacSon that's an interesting quote about Hermas
I think it shows Hermas's mystical orientation. The lack of interest in historical stuff simply shows what is important in his church
As far as i know (correct if wrong) there's no claim to apostolic authority, historical information or reference to the prophets (or any Hebrew scripture quotes at all? Maybe a 'two ways' slips in there?) at all. What was important to Hermas's church isn't what was important later on
Something changed.
What? When?
I believe that the legendary accounts of the early popes (eg Clement I) may actually represent a shift in direction from the top down that ultimately led to Hermas's sidelining and eventual exclusion from the canon. When originally it was THE holy text in it's heyday. The fact it took so long for this process to happen shows how popular it must have been. So one of these early bishops of Rome would introduce the changes - to raise the importance of the Hebrew scriptures especially the prophets - to promote apostolic authority - and doctrines such as atonement - official gospels - all the familiar stuff
What isn't so clear is how representative is Hermas's church. Is it the main church in Rome? Are other types of Christianities around too? Ones more Pauline, ones more Ebionite? Sure why not. What i mean is even Hermas as it is shows development from Jewish concepts which must imply some link back there
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MrMacSon
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Re: 'The Original Gnostic Apostles'

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I'm not sure that part passage from Shepherd of Hermas quoted by Doherty captures what Shepherd says about apostles

[it probably does]

From http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

Third Vision, chapter V

"Hear now with regard to the stones which are in the building. Those square white stones which fitted exactly into each other, are apostles, bishops, teachers, and deacons, who have lived in godly purity, and have acted as bishops and teachers and deacons chastely and reverently to the elect of God. Some of them have fallen asleep, and some still remain alive. And they have always agreed with each other, and been at peace among themselves, and listened to each other. On account of this, they join exactly into the building of the tower."


Ninth Similitude, successive chapters XV - XVII

.
Chapter XV

... And the stones, sir," I said, "which were taken out of the pit and fitted into the building: what are they?"

"The first," he said, "the ten, viz, that were placed as a foundation, are the first generation, and the twenty-five the second generation, of righteous men; and the thirty-five are the prophets of God and His ministers; and the forty are the apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God."

"Why, then, sir," I asked, "did the virgins carry these stones also through the gate, and give them for the building of the tower?"

"Because," he answered, "these were the first who bore these spirits, and they never departed from each other, neither the spirits from the men nor the men from the spirits, but the spirits remained with them until their falling asleep. And unless they had had these spirits with them, they would not have been of use for the building of this tower."

Chapter XVI

... "Why, sir," I said, "did these stones ascend out of the pit, and be applied to the building of the tower, after having borne these spirits?"

"They were obliged," he answered, "to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For," he continued, "before a man bears the name of the Son of God s he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God."

"Why, sir," I asked, "did the forty stones also ascend with them out of the pit, having already received the seal?"

"Because," he said, "these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after falling asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached it not only to those who were asleep, but themselves also gave them the seal of the preaching. Accordingly they descended with them into the water, and again ascended. [But these descended alive and rose up again alive; whereas they who had previously fallen asleep descended dead, but rose up again alive]. By these, then, were they quickened and made to know the name of the Son of God. For this reason also did they ascend with them, and were fitted along with them into the building of the tower, and, untouched by the chisel, were built in along with them. For they slept in righteousness and in great purity, but only they had not this seal. You have accordingly the explanation of these also."

Chapter XVII

"I understand, sir," I replied. "Now, sir," I continued, "explain to me, with respect to the mountains, why their forms are various and diverse."

"Listen," he said: "these mountains are the twelve tribes, which inhabit the whole world. The Son of God, accordingly, was preached unto them by the apostles."

"But why are the mountains of various kinds, some having one form, and others another? Explain that to me, sir."

"Listen," he answered: "these twelve tribes that inhabit the whole world are twelve nations. And they vary in prudence and understanding. As numerous, then, as are the varieties of the mountains which you saw, are also the diversities of mind and understanding among these nations. And I will explain to you the actions of each one" ...
.


Ninth Similitude, Chapter XXV

"And they who believed from the eighth mountain, where were the many fountains, and where all the creatures of God drank of the fountains, were the following: apostles, and teachers, who preached to the whole world, and who taught solemnly and purely the word of the Lord, and did not at all fall into evil desires, but walked always in righteousness and truth, according as they had received the Holy Spirit. Such persons, therefore, shall enter in with the angels."

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