in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

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neilgodfrey
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:23 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:24 am
But what the midrash on The Origin of the World adds is :
. . .
Is not this same sequence found in Second Temple era stories of martyrdom?

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neilgodfrey
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:26 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:43 pm
As James Barlow noted independently from me, also there, in the original Ascension of Isaiah, we have the same sequence:
  • (1) the archontes raise a question addressed to a deity
  • (2) the deity gives the answer
  • (3) the archontes crucify the deity
Thoughts? :cheers:
Despite James Barlow's case (I have read it twice) I am not convinced that in the AoI that "the archontes crucify the deity". It may be possible but there is too much uncertainty about the original text.

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Giuseppe
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:21 pm

neilgodfrey wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:23 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:24 am
But what the midrash on The Origin of the World adds is :
. . .
Is not this same sequence found in Second Temple era stories of martyrdom?
really are there equally similar parallels? I am curious to learn about them, thanks in advance for any possible reference. But until I don't see them, I am sincerely persuaded that the sequence derives from texts as (original) Ascension of Isaiah and/or On the Origin of the World.

I point out again and again that the discussion is not idle. The Pilate episode remains a pivotal episode even if Secret Alias was correct to think that Pilate was absent in the oldest Gospel narrative.

ADDENDA: Note that you should find an exact parallel sequence, where the punition follows immediately the answer in a genuine post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Pilate kills Jesus, de facto, because his answer and not merely after his answer.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by neilgodfrey » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:50 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:21 pm
really are there equally similar parallels?
I was thinking of the stock scene found throughout the literature -- Daniel 3 comes immediately to mind: the questioning by the king/judge followed by the confession of "guilty as charge" followed by the immediate "execution" or would-be execution followed by the exaltation of the heroic victim.

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Giuseppe
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:30 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:50 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:21 pm
really are there equally similar parallels?
I was thinking of the stock scene found throughout the literature -- Daniel 3 comes immediately to mind: the questioning by the king/judge followed by the confession of "guilty as charge" followed by the immediate "execution" or would-be execution followed by the exaltation of the heroic victim.
Mmm... in Daniel 3 the sequence has 3 victims, not 1.

Another difference: the "glorification" of Adam by the Archontes, according to prof Painchaud, is precisely the crucifixion (see also John 12:16: "Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him").

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Giuseppe
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:58 am

Another difference: in Daniel and similar trope, the question (posed by the ruler) is NOT about the identity of the victim, differently from AoI and Origin of the world. Questioning the identity of the victim is a precise feature found only in the latter texts.

Geocalyx
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Geocalyx » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:09 am

Are you guys seriously referencing a NHC book that is literally a self-admitted ecumenical summary with multiple sources, some of which are even referenced by name, as if it were some sort of ... source text?

Is that's what's happening here? Because you might want to note that this stuff isn't exactly on the same spiritual level with the Book of Daniel.
"Mark" (Judaizer) had the women not only without that power of give resurrection, but even abandoning explicitly any claim in such sense, "because they were afraid".

Why was "Mark" so eager to despise the credibility of the women?
Because the Emperor had to have the authority over everything.
Were the women symbols of the excessive Gnostic freedom?
Or they might have been recognized as part of the old Pagan cyclical-mother-earth symbolism. Uranus & Gaia. Man work. Woman give birth, make miracle happen with child. Child is rebirth of some dead person. World goes on. Nothing limited to 'gnostic' here, this was present way back in Ancient Greece and Egypt and who knows where else back in the day.
I think that the answer is that the celestial Adam, once risen, had exalted Eve.
I don't think you are right, but shine on I guess.
Another difference: in Daniel and similar trope, the question (posed by the ruler) is NOT about the identity of the victim, differently from AoI and Origin of the world. Questioning the identity of the victim is a precise feature found only in the latter texts.
No victims here, but ...
John D. Turner, Trimorphic Protennoia wrote:And the thrones of the Powers were disturbed, since they were overturned, and their King was afraid. And those who pursue Fate paid their allotment of visits to the path, and they said to the Powers, "What is this disturbance and this shaking that has come upon us through a Voice <belonging> to the exalted Speech? And our entire habitation has been shaken, and the entire circuit of the path of ascent has met with destruction, and the path upon which we go, which takes us up to the Archgenitor of our birth, has ceased to be established for us."

Then the Powers answered, saying, "We too are at loss about it, since we did not know what was responsible for it. But arise, let us go up to the Archgenitor and ask him."

//...//

... I was dwelling in them in the form of each one. The Archons thought that I was their Christ. Indeed, I dwell in everyone. Indeed, within those in whom I revealed myself as Light, I eluded the Archons. I am their beloved, for in that place I clothed myself as the son of the Archgenitor, and I was like him until the end of his decree, which is the ignorance of Chaos.

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Giuseppe
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:19 am

Geocalix, please don't disturb our discussion. I don't know what are "levels of spirituality", here, but even if I was able to know them, I would be ready to see more "spirituality" in an anti-YHWH text than in a OT text.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by neilgodfrey » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:41 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:30 am
neilgodfrey wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:50 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:21 pm
really are there equally similar parallels?
I was thinking of the stock scene found throughout the literature -- Daniel 3 comes immediately to mind: the questioning by the king/judge followed by the confession of "guilty as charge" followed by the immediate "execution" or would-be execution followed by the exaltation of the heroic victim.
Mmm... in Daniel 3 the sequence has 3 victims, not 1.

Another difference: the "glorification" of Adam by the Archontes, according to prof Painchaud, is precisely the crucifixion (see also John 12:16: "Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him").
Fair enough. But it's not a textual relationship I've investigated. I'm not really the right person to engage in discussion on this question.

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Giuseppe
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:06 pm

neilgodfrey wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:41 pm
. But it's not a textual relationship I've investigated.
ok but what do you mean by saying "it's not a textual relationship"? If you assume, as Pinchaud, that Origin of the World is based on the Fourth Gospel, it is a textual relationship. Is not it?

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