MrMacSon wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:51 pm
gryan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:33 am
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless anyone be born of water and of the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That having been born of the flesh is flesh, and that having been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Th[at] passage from GJohn...is an initiation into the mysteries of the spirit-body. Being born of the spirit does not mean the elimination of flesh. In GJohn, "The word became flesh and dwelt among us." The flesh becomes a place of love in the world.
"born of water" is likely to be a reference to amniotic fluid and actual parturition, but it also invokes the theology around Osiris and his birth and rebirth via the Nile (& repackaged with the cult of Antinous who, ironically, is said to have died in the Nile during the annual festival celebrating Osiris).
gryan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:33 am
This Rabbinic dialogue provides an interesting and humorous place to ponder literal vs figurative meaning:
"Theologian Charles Ellicott wrote that 'after the method of Rabbinic dialogue, [Nicodemus] presses the impossible meaning of the words in order to exclude it, and to draw forth the true meaning. 'You cannot mean that a man is to enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born. What is it, then, that you do mean?' In this instance, Nicodemus chooses the literal (rather than the figurative) meaning of anōthen
1 and assumes that that meaning exhausts the significance of the word."
Nicodemus
I think the resurrection stories in the Gospels should be approached similarly: To draw forth the true meaning of the words, "press the impossible meaning
in order to exclude it."
1 anōthen, ἄνωθεν,
- Definition: from above
- Usage: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew.
John 3
.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above,[a] he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus says to Him, “How is a man able to be born, being old? Is he able to enter into the womb of his mother a second time, & to be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless anyone be born of water and of the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That having been born of the flesh is flesh, and that having been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not wonder that I said to you, ‘It is necessary for you all to be born from above.’
[a] The Greek for 'from above' means 'again' [and vice versa]; also in verse 7.
.
It's worth noting the idea in antiquity of the firmament with water above, separating the earthly realm from the heavens above.
It all is a perfect remake of the original that has been talked about so much, that which stands in contrast with
Matthew 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he!
Luke 7:28 I say to you, no one among those born of women is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, having been born of a woman, having been born under the Law,
and it is beautifully phrased in John:
John 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of will of flesh, nor of will of man, but of God.
whereas Paul struggles with it:
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, having been born of a woman, having been born under the Law,
23 But indeed, the one of the slave woman has been born according to flesh, but the one of the free, through the promise,
29 But just as at that time the one having been born according to flesh was persecuting the one born according to Spirit, so also it is now.
1 Peter experiments further:
1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God,
And 1 John continues where John left off
1 John 3:9 Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.
4:7 Beloved, we should love one another, because love is from God; and everyone loving has been born from God and knows God.
5:1 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone loving the One having begotten Him also loves the one having been begotten from Him.
4 For everyone having been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory having overcome the world: our faith.
18 We know that everyone having been born of God does not continue to sin, but the One having been begotten of God protects him,c and the evil one does not touch him.
And of course I will argue that all those wild and crooked branches all were planted onto the same tree:
15 said IS : When you(PL) "should" behold him-who there-is-
not they beget him from the(F) woman: bend-self you(PL) upon your(PL.) face and you(PL) worship him; he-who therein is your(PL.) father
As usual, Thomas holds the basic form, isn't trying to explain it or put it to a certain use. He is pointing to the real You here, unknown to all - but that is besides the point, everyone just tried to make sense of the riddling "(not) begotten of woman", and that is exactly what we encounter in the NT; every single struggle in the NT can be pointed back to Thomas having the concept in a very basic and simple and concise form