The start of the Jesus story

[John2]

Jesus of Nazareth, if he did live, would have been known by Jews and Pilate as an idiotic false prophet since about the 15th year of Tiberius c 29-30 CE.

I agree. But is that not how Jesus is presented as being received by Jews and Romans in the NT? Take these excerpts from Mark, for example.

Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples could not even eat. When his family heard about this, they went out to take custody of him, saying, “He is out of his mind.”

And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “By the prince of the demons he drives out demons.”

Jesus went on from there and came to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished. “Where did this man get these ideas?” they asked. “What is this wisdom he has been given? And how can he perform such miracles? Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joses,a Judas, and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us as well?” And they took offense at him.

Then Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown, among his relatives, and in his own household is a prophet without honor.”

Then the Pharisees came and began to argue with Jesus, testing him by demanding from him a sign from heaven.

Jesus sighed deeply in his spirit and said, “Why does this generation demand a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke this message quite frankly, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

He told them, “The Son of Man will be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.” But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?”

And they all condemned him as deserving of death.

Then some of them began to spit on him. They blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said to him, “Prophesy!” And the officers received him with slaps in his face.

Then the soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called the whole company together. They dressed him in a purple robe, twisted together a crown of thorns, and set it on his head. And they began to salute him: “Hail, King of the Jews!”

They kept striking his head with a staff and spitting on him. And they knelt down and bowed before him. After they had mocked him, they removed the purple robe and put his own clothes back on him. Then they led him out to crucify him.

And those who passed by heaped abuse on him, shaking their heads and saying, “Aha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, come down from the cross and save yourself!”

In the same way, the chief priests and scribes mocked him among themselves, saying, “He saved others, but he cannot save himself! Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross, so that we may see and believe!” And even those who were crucified with him berated him.

[Bernard Muller]

to Cora,

In the OT there are anointed ones, but always connected to a certain king.

In that case, Jesus was accused a king to be and Christ in gMarcion (for you, the first gospel) and in the NT gospels, hailed as a king and crucified as "king of the Jews". NT gospels have Jesus as Christ.

Justin and exodus: in the dialogue with Trypho.

I don't know why you bring Justin and exodus.

Justin was a member of one of the small churches from Marcion.

How do you know that? From the internet, I guess.

Justin: the cross from Moses and Jesus in the dialogue of Trypho. The crucifixion by forging psalm 22 (the pierced etc.) in his Apology 1. This psalm 22 is then used for the crucifixion story. I thought everybody knew that. The crucifixion is not real, it is written of from psalm 22.

gMarcion has also the crucifixion. So Justin did not invent it.

The stake is recognised, stauros means stake, it is in the old NT's.

The non canonical epistle of Barnabas (9:8) has "stauros" looking like a T.

Jesus' life is not a fact, where do you get that idea? From gospels from 185?

I did not date the NT gospels from 185. You did. BTW, were did you get that (very late) dating? Maybe from the internet? Bart Herman?

What do you mean, not ancient for sure? I used all the ancient sources, all the time.

But you wrote: "I don't have to give ancient sources, which most of the time are not there anyway".

And yes, I solved it. I only had underestimated Justin's role.

Are you forgetting about Marcion?

Cordially, Bernard

[hakeem]

Jesus of Nazareth, if he did live, would have been known by Jews and Pilate as an idiotic false prophet since about the 15th year of Tiberius c 29-30 CE.

I agree. But is that not how Jesus is presented as being received by Jews and Romans in the NT? Take these excerpts from Mark, for example.

I am referring to the death of the supposed Jesus of Nazareth which allegedly occurred around the 15th year of Tiberius based on gLuke. After being dead for three days he would have been known as an idiotic false prophet.

Even, before he was dead Jesus of Nazareth was mocked for his stupidity.

[John2]

Jesus of Nazareth, if he did live, would have been known by Jews and Pilate as an idiotic false prophet since about the 15th year of Tiberius c 29-30 CE.

I agree. But is that not how Jesus is presented as being received by Jews and Romans in the NT? Take these excerpts from Mark, for example.

I am referring to the death of the supposed Jesus of Nazareth which allegedly occurred around the 15th year of Tiberius based on gLuke. After being dead for three days he would have been known as an idiotic false prophet.

In that case then we have 1 Cor. 1:23.

... but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles ...

[hakeem]

The story in Acts of the Apostles about the Jerusalem Church and thousands of Jewish believers some of whom were persecuted by Saul [who was later called Paul] is utter fiction.

The very Gospels show that Acts of the Apostles is a work of fiction in grand proportion.

In the earliest NT Gospel, the short gMark, when the supposed Jesus was arrested before the crucifixion his own disciples ran away and one of his supposed followers fled naked to avoid being captured..

Mark 14

50 And they all forsook him, and fled.
51 And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:
52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked .

The apostle called Peter, although earlier he claimed Jesus was the Christ, denied knowing him while Jesus was on trial before the Sanhedrin.

Mark 14. 71

But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

In gMark, the arrest of Jesus has effectively disbanded his disciples--they are in hiding for fear of their lives.

According to gMark, Jesus was crucified in less than 24 hours after his arrest..

The Jews in Jerusalem, in effect, have arrest warrants for those who were associated with Jesus of Nazareth who was found guilty of death for blasphemy.

It is most obvious, based on gMark, that it is virtually impossible for the disciples to have come out of hiding and with Peter publicly start to preach the very same blasphemy of Jesus without being arrested and then found guilty of death.

In fact, Acts of the Apostles, shows what was supposed to have happened to the disciples and Peter as soon as they were found by the Jews--they would have been put on trial and then executed. [cut off their heads, stoned to death or crucified]

In Acts, Stephen was stoned to death for preaching about Jesus of Nazareth.

Acts 7:59

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

We have examples of similar events in the writings of Josephus where Theudas, a magician and prophet, had his head cut off and sent to Jerusalem and many of his followers killed.

Antiquities of the Jews 20.5.1

1. NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, (9) persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words.

However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.

Acts of the Apostles with Peter and the apostles publicly preaching the same blasphemy of the crucified Jesus to Jews in Jerusalem about 50 days after the crucifixion without being arrested and executed is complete fiction.

The heads of Peter and the Apostles would have been on display in Jerusalem.

The Jerusalem Church, the thousands of Jewish believers and the persecutor Saul/Paul are products of invention.

[Bernard Muller]

to Cora,

B, Isu is in a Marcionite writing from the 4th century, I think it is called Adamantius. The scholars trying to get Paulus from Tertullianus have found Isu Chrestos in Paulus. Look for it. It is logical because Marcion follows Paulus strictly. So if he said it, Paul must have said it.

About Paul, you must have got your "info" from a certain Dan Mahar:
DC Hindley wrote:

It was Dan Mahar [a freelance scholar], in the pdf of his English Translation of Marcion's Galatians [actually a "reconstruction" from very few attested elements], available from Detering's site, who said:
One such creative liberty is the name for the Marcionite Savior, "Isu Chrestos" - "Isu" derived on the designation of Syrian Marcionites, the spelling for "Chrestos" (= the Good one) derived from an ancient inscription to a Marcionite synagogue.
...
"Mahar's "Isu" is his own invention, as the word for Jesus had been abbreviated in the inscription. He thought that it would correspond to the Syriac name Isu, known from the 4th century work Dialogue on the true faith in God usually ascribed to its main character, Adamantius [I am not sure about that, but isu appears in Ephraem's writings againt Marcion: see bottom of this post], but the inscription is in Greek so it actually suggests no such thing. It would have to have been inscribed in Aramaic before I'd go for an interpretation like that.

About Chrestos, DC Hindley wrote:

Besides a very few cases where NT mss have chrestos as a variant of christos, the only other case is the Roman writer Suetonius who said that Jews were expelled from Rome by Claudius around 49 CE "because they were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chresto.

Per Wiki, which cites J. Boman, Inpulsore Cherestro? Suetonius’ Divus Claudius 25.4 in Sources and Manuscripts, Liber Annuus 61 (2011), ISSN 0081-8933, Studium Biblicum Franciscanum, Jerusalem 2012, p. 375 f., the exact phrase is "Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit," from Divus Claudius chapter 25 section 4.

Per the Persius site, "Chresto" derives from either the Genitive or Dative form of either

1) Chrestus , i, m.
I. [select] A mutilated form for Christus, Lact. 4, 7, 5; hence, Chrestiani, instead of Christiani, was used by many; cf. Tert. Apol. 3 fin.—

So, you are not on solid ground with your Paul by Marcion, and Chrest or Chrestians.
Furthermore, "Chrestos" can also mean:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:́

chrēstos

1) fit, fit for use, useful
1a) virtuous, good

2) manageable
2a) mild, pleasant (as opp. to harsh, hard sharp, bitter)
2b) of things: more pleasant, of people, kind, benevolent
...
Usage:

This word is used 7 times:

Matthew 11:30: "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is" [ὁ γὰρ ζυγός μου χρηστὸς καὶ τὸ φορτίον μου ἐλαφρόν ἐστιν]
Luke 5:39: "The old is better." [καὶ οὐδεὶς πιὼν παλαιὸν θέλει νέον λέγει γάρ ὁ παλαιὸς χρηστός ἐστιν]
Luke 6:35: "Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful" [ὑψίστου ὅτι αὐτὸς χρηστός ἐστιν ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀχαρίστους καὶ πονηρούς]
Romans 2:4: "not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to" [ἀγνοῶν ὅτι τὸ χρηστὸν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς μετάνοιάν σε ἄγει]
1 Corinthians 15:33: "evil communications corrupt good manners." [μὴ πλανᾶσθε· Φθείρουσιν ἤθη χρησθ᾽ ὁμιλίαι κακαί]
Ephesians 4:32: "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another," [γίνεσθε δὲ εἰς ἀλλήλους χρηστοί εὔσπλαγχνοι χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς καθὼς]
1 Peter 2:3: "that the Lord is gracious." [ εἴπερ ἐγεύσασθε ὅτι χρηστὸς ὁ κύριος]

About Ephraem against Marcion (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ephra ... rcion1.htm):

AGAINST MARCION I.
But if Marcion still persists in cavilling, let him be asked again as to whether he believes the word of the Stranger or not. If he believes it, what did He (i.e. the Stranger) testify concerning John ? That John forsooth was a liar, or a true man ? Did [P. 82.] He say concerning him that he was in error, or that he was an enlightener of such as are in error ? If then John is a true man, and not a reed shaken by every wind,24 why [therefore] is he shaken and does he think about Jesus 25 that he [was] the Messiah of the Law. And if [John knew] the word of Isu to be 'No,' [lo,] then Isu really lied in that he said concerning John that he (i.e. John) did send to him. But if in truth John was shaken and sent to Isu, the word of Isu was also a lie, when he testified concerning John that he was not a reed shaken by every wind.

Ephraem (306 – 373) named "Jesus" and "isu" (as translated from Syriac to English) was used by Syriac speaking Marcionites.

Cordially, Bernard

[cora]

B, you must have is a stupid remark, Dan Mahar never heard off, that Hindley seems to be the same type of arrogantly knowing all authoritarian putting down people as most biblical scholars, which attitude I hate. Don't you know they of the church go on and on against Marcion althought he died around 160? They were just beginning then, but forget that Marcion cannot say anything back. This is just rhetorical bullshit, but at least the word Isu is 4 times in it, so the name exists, as I said.
So, both Paul and Marcion said: Isu Chrestos (has been changed of course). I am absolutely 100% sure of that. And that Hindley is really too dumb to talk to or read. HE DOES NOT KNOW THAT CHRESTOS WAS IN THE NT UNTIL AT LEAST 450. And no christos at all. What a dumb asshole!!!! And you did not know that either otherwise you would not bother me with this junk. AND HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHAT CHRESTOS IN THIS CASE MEANS. It does not mean "good". So dumb and so arrogant. That is their level. If you want to bother me again, please come with something with some more level. Or I quit. C.

[John2]

In gMark, the arrest of Jesus has effectively disbanded his disciples--they are in hiding for fear of their lives.

According to gMark, Jesus was crucified in less than 24 hours after his arrest..

The Jews in Jerusalem, in effect, have arrest warrants for those who were associated with Jesus of Nazareth who was found guilty of death for blasphemy.

It is most obvious, based on gMark, that it is virtually impossible for the disciples to have come out of hiding and with Peter publicly start to preach the very same blasphemy of Jesus without being arrested and then found guilty of death.

In fact, Acts of the Apostles, shows what was supposed to have happened to the disciples and Peter as soon as they were found by the Jews--they would have been put on trial and then executed. [cut off their heads, stoned to death or crucified]

In Acts, Stephen was stoned to death for preaching about Jesus of Nazareth.

Acts 7:59

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

We have examples of similar events in the writings of Josephus where Theudas, a magician and prophet, had his head cut off and sent to Jerusalem and many of his followers killed.

Antiquities of the Jews 20.5.1

1. NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, (9) persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words.

However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.

Acts of the Apostles with Peter and the apostles publicly preaching the same blasphemy of the crucified Jesus to Jews in Jerusalem about 50 days after the crucifixion without being arrested and executed is complete fiction.

The heads of Peter and the Apostles would have been on display in Jerusalem.

Josephus says that "many" of Theudas' followers were arrested and killed, not all of them, and is that not what happens to Christians in Acts? After Jesus was arrested and killed, "many" of his followers were arrested and killed, starting with Stephen and continuing on to others in the Jerusalem church (including women).


Acts 8:1-3:

On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. God-fearing men buried Stephen and mourned deeply over him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

Paul then ends up getting arrested and tried as well after his conversion. And given that there were thousands of Christians according to Acts (and Fourth Philosophers in general), I highly doubt the authorities could have arrested and killed all of them any more than they were able to arrest and kill all Fourth Philosophers or all Christians during later persecutions.

And if Paul was able to forestall punishment in Acts by declaring his loyalty to Rome and the status quo, perhaps Peter was able to do the same given his position regarding submission to authorities, like the Simon in Josephus who resembles him.

Acts 25:8:

Then Paul made his defense: “I have committed no offense against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar.”

1 Peter 2:13-17:

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to the king as the supreme authority, or to governors as those sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Treat everyone with high regard: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

Cf. Ant. 19.7.4:

So the king sent for him [Simon]; and as he was sitting in the theater, he bid him sit down by him, and said to him with a low and gentle voice, "What is there done in this place that is contrary to the law?" But he had nothing to say for himself, but begged his pardon. So the king was more easily reconciled to him than one could have imagined, as esteeming mildness a better quality in a king than anger, and knowing that moderation is more becoming in great men than passion. So he made Simon a small present, and dismissed him.

[cora]

John2,
The fourth philosophy are the Zealots, fanatical jews who wanted to fight the romans all the time. Like ISIS or the Taliban.
Jesus was a pacifist (originally).
Cora.

[John2]

John2,
The fourth philosophy are the Zealots, fanatical jews who wanted to fight the romans all the time. Like ISIS or the Taliban.
Jesus was a pacifist (originally).
Cora.

Not all Fourth Philosophers were as extreme as the Zealots. Others were simply "wackos" like Theudas, who is not described as being violent, or moderates like Niger of Perea, who (according to his Wikipedia page) "was killed by zealots in Jerusalem, due to his moderate views, which led people to believe that he wanted to make peace with Rome." Josephus is another example of a moderate, as are (in my view) Peter and Paul.

Jesus and his followers had the same goals as other Fourth Philosophers (rejection of the "customs of our fathers" and the belief that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth," as per Josephus), and Jesus' way of achieving the latter was to suffer and die and resurrect and ascend to heaven and return to earth as Daniel's "son of man" figure. As Jesus says in Mk. 8:38, "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

And as Dan. 7:14 says about the "son of man" figure, "He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." Surely the high priest was aware of this when Jesus said he was the "son of man" during his trial.

Again the high priest questioned him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”

“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.

To me Jesus is like the type of Fourth Philosophers Josephus mentions in War 2.13.4.

These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government.

What were Jesus' teachings against the "customs of our fathers" if not "innovations" and his proclamation of the "kingdom of God" and the coming of the "son of man" if not a call for (or at least a prediction of) a "change of the government"?