Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

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rgprice
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Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

Post by rgprice »

As we know, "gospel" means "good news".

So do we have εὐαγγέλιον of χρηστός or εὐαγγέλιον of χριστός?

Why are we being told about the "good news"? Why is Paul's message "good news"? Is it "good news" because it is news about "Good Jesus"?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Chrestos and are turning to a different good news— 7 which is really not good news at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the good news of Chrestos [The Good One].

Last edited by rgprice on Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

Post by Peter Kirby »

As an aside, the gloss of the English word "good" in these matters is often problematic.

It leads us to find connections that may or not be apparent to the Greek writer.

In any case,
rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:08 am So do we have εὐαγγέλιον of χρηστός or εὐαγγέλιον of χριστός?
It's a good question, but I don't think this will tell us.
Secret Alias
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Re: Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

Post by Secret Alias »

I think chrestos has shades of useful in it. So it is always "good" in the sense of handy, applicable, right etc. The word eudaemonia for instance doesn't really reflect a "useful" or "handy" spirit but something else. I think chrestos in Christian circles (for the hundredth time now) is related to the idea of a particular individual being "the right one" for a chosen task. He's not necessarily "holy" in the sense of virginal, pure etc. He's the one who "fits" the role chosen at the beginning i.e. "until Shilo comes" where shilo is read as shelo, "to whom it belongs," to whom it fits, to whom it is given etc. Again, if the "Shilo" prophesy was applied to Herod and Vespasian it is hard to understand this in terms of anointed one like David unless it can be argued that Herod and Vespasian were argued to be "sons of David." It's a different conception related to Moses (and thus includes Samaritan eschatology) rather than David. When the Marcionites said that the Jews interpreted the prophesies wrong with regards to their anointed one, I have said this another one hundred times, they weren't saying that all the prophesies were full of shit but that the Jewish "son of David" anointed one was wrong. The fact that there were so many Samaritans in early Christianity already provides a grounding for this worldview as well as "Samaritanisms" in Acts (Stephen's stoning for saying the temple was an abomination) and other reports. Look at the Clementine literature and see that there were early Christians who connected Jesus with Moses but not David. That's the path here.
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Re: Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:56 am It's a different conception related to Moses (and thus includes Samaritan eschatology) rather than David. When the Marcionites said that the Jews interpreted the prophesies wrong with regards to their anointed one, I have said this another one hundred times, they weren't saying that all the prophesies were full of shit but that the Jewish "son of David" anointed one was wrong. The fact that there were so many Samaritans in early Christianity already provides a grounding for this worldview as well as "Samaritanisms" in Acts (Stephen's stoning for saying the temple was an abomination) and other reports. Look at the Clementine literature and see that there were early Christians who connected Jesus with Moses but not David. That's the path here.
I would love to see how you develop this further.
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Re: Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

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It's so fucking annoying. Believe it or not I'm a rather modest shy person. I don't take myself that seriously. But religious people IMHO sublimate their egoism so "it's not about me but the truth (which is tradition)." Judaism is subsequent to Samaritanism. It wasn't that "all the Israelites" were "Jews" and then Samaritans rebelled against "original concepts" like the Davidic messiah. The specifically Jewish ideas came later. That's why there is no mention of THE messiah in the Pentateuch.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

Post by MrMacSon »

There's a lot more nuance to a few various meanings of εὐαγγέλιον:


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2098: εὐαγγέλιον

εὐαγγέλιον, εὐαγγελίου, τό (εὐάγγελος (cf. εὐαγγελίζω)), Hebrew בְּשׂורָה and בְּשֹׂרָה;

1. a reward for good tidings (cf. τά διδασκαλία, the fees given the διδάσκαλος), Homer, Odyssey 14, 152; Cicero, ad Att. 2, 3 and 12; 13, 40; Plutarch, Demetr. 17; Ages. 33; the Sept[uagint] 2 Samuel 4:10 ['one' brought supposed good news that Saul was dead; Gk: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/2sa/4/10/s_271010].

2. [a] good tidings: Lucian, asin. 26; Appendix,

b. civ. 4, 20; Plutarch; others; plural the Sept. 2 Samuel 18:22, 25, common text; but in each place εὐαγγελία should apparently be restored, on account of 2 Samuel 18:20 ἀνήρ εὐαγγελίας.
  • 2Sam 18.20 And Joab said to him, Thou [are] not a messenger of glad tidings this day; thou shalt bear them another day; but on this day thou shalt bear no tidings, because the king's son is dead
    καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ιωαβ, οὐκ ἀνὴρ εὐαγγελίας σὺ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ταύτῃ καὶ εὐαγγελιῇ ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ἄλλῃ ἐν δὲ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ταύτῃ οὐκ εὐαγγελιῇ, οὗ εἵνεκεν ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ βασιλέως ἀπέθανεν

    2Sam 18.22 Ahimaaz {gr.Achimaas} the son of Zadok {gr.Sadoc} said again to Joab, Nay, let me also run after Hushai {gr.Chusi}. And Joab said, Why wouldest thou thus run, my son? attend, thou hast no tidings for profit if thou go.
    καὶ προσέθετο ἔτι Αχιμαας υἱὸς Σαδωκ καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς Ιωαβ καὶ ἔστω ὅτι δράμω καί γε ἐγὼ ὀπίσω τοῦ Χουσι. καὶ εἶπεν Ιωαβ, ἵνα τί τοῦτο τρέχεις υἱέ μου δεῦρο οὐκ ἔστιν σοι εὐαγγελία εἰς ὠφέλειαν πορευομένῳ

    2Sam 18.24 And David was sitting between the two gates: and the watchman went up on the top of the gate of the wall, and lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold a man running alone before him.

    2Sam 18.25 And the watchman cried out, and reported to the king. And the king said, If he be alone, good tidings [are] in his mouth. And the man came and drew near.
    καὶ ἀνεβόησεν ὁ σκοπὸς καὶ ἀπήγγειλεν τῷ βασιλεῖ. καὶ εἶπεν ὁ βασιλεύς εἰ μόνος ἐστίν εὐαγγελία ἐν τῷ στόματι αὐτοῦ. καὶ ἐπορεύετο πορευόμενος καὶ ἐγγίζων

    http://qbible.com/brenton-septuagint/2- ... 18.html#22 and https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/2sa/18/1/s_285001


In the N. T., specifically,

[3] a. the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus, the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom: Mark 1:15; Mark 8:35; Mark 10:29; Mark 13:10; Mark 14:9; Mark 16:15; Matthew 26:13; with a genitive of the object added: τῆς βασιλείας, Matthew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 24:14; Mark 1:14 R L brackets After the death of Christ the term τό εὐαγγέλιον comprises also the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven, thence to return in majesty to consummate the kingdom of God; so that it may be more briefly defined as "the glad tidings of salvation through Christ; the proclamation of the grace of God manifested and pledged in Christ; the gospel" (A-S. god-spell (see Skeat, Etymological Dictionary, under the word)): Acts 15:7; Romans 1:16 G L T Tr WH; ; 1 Corinthians 4:15; 1 Corinthians 9:14, 18 (G L T Tr WH), ; ; 2 Corinthians 8:18; Galatians 2:2; Ephesians 3:6; Ephesians 6:19 (L WH brackets ἐυαγελιον); Philippians 1:5, 7, 12, 17 (); (, cf. εἰς, B. II. 2 d.); Philippians 4:3 (cf. Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 47, 2 [ET]); 1 Thessalonians 2:4; 2 Timothy 1:8, 10; with a genitive of the object, the gospel concerning etc.: τοῦ Χριστοῦ (cf. Winer's Grammar, 186f (175f)), Romans 1:16 Rec.; Rec.; 1 Corinthians 9:12, 18 (Rec.); 2 Corinthians 2:12; 2 Corinthians 9:13; 2 Corinthians 10:14; Galatians 1:7; Philippians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 3:2; τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 (T Tr WH omit; L brackets Χριστοῦ); τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Romans 1:9 cf. Mark 1:1; τῆς σωτηρίας ὑμῶν, Ephesians 1:13; τῆς εἰρήνης, Ephesians 6:15; τῆς χάριτος τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 20:24; τῆς δόξης τοῦ μακαρίου Θεοῦ, 1 Timothy 1:11; τῆς δόξης τοῦ Χριστοῦ, 2 Corinthians 4:4. ἡ ἀλήθεια τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, the truth contained in the gospel (cf. Winer's Grammar, 236 (221f)), Galatians 2:5, 14; Colossians 1:5; ἡ ἐλπίς τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, the hope which the gospel awakens and strengthens, Colossians 1:23; ἡ πίστις τοῦ εὐαγγελίου the faith given the gospel, Philippians 1:27; οἱ δεσμοί τοῦ εὐαγγελίου (see δεσμός, at the end), Philemon 1:13; ἕτερον εὐαγγέλιον of another sort, ie. different from the true doctrine concerning Christian salvation, Galatians 1:6; 2 Corinthians 11:4; αἰώνιον εὐαγγέλιον, the contents of which were decreed by God from eternity, Revelation 14:6.

With the genitive of the author; and that α. of the author of the subject-matter or facts on which the glad tidings of man's salvation rest, and who wished these glad tidings to be conveyed to men: τό εὐαγγέλιον τοῦ Θεοῦ, Romans 15:16; 2 Corinthians 11:7; 1 Thessalonians 2:2, 8; 1 Peter 4:17; more fully τοῦ Θεοῦ περί τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ, Romans 1:1-3. β. of the author of the particular mode in which the subject-matter of the gospel is understood (conception of the gospel) and taught to others; thus Paul calls his exposition of the gospel (and that of the teachers who agree with him), in opposition to that of those teaching differently, τό εὐαγγέλιον ἡμῶν: 2 Corinthians 4:3 (cf. τό εὐαγγέλιον τό εὐαγγελισθέν ὑπ' ἐμοῦ, Galatians 1:11); κατά τό εὐαγγέλιον μου, as I expound it, Romans 2:16; Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 2:8. γ. of him who preaches the gospel: ἡμῶν, 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:14. with the genitive of those to whom it is announced: τῆς περιτομῆς (i. e. τῶν περιτετμημενων), to be preached to the circumcised or Jews; and τό εὐαγγέλιον τῆς ἀκροβυστίας, to be carried to the Gentiles, Galatians 2:7.

b. As the Messianic rank of Jesus was proved by his words, his deeds, and his death, the narrative of the sayings, deeds, and death of Jesus Christ came to be called εὐαγγέλιον: so perhaps in Mark 1:1; for the passage may also mean, 'glad tidings concerning Jesus Christ began to be proclaimed even as it is written,' ... the name was given to a written narrative of the glad tidings; so in the titles of the Gospels, on which see κατά, II. 3 c. α. (On the ecclesiastical senses of the word, see Sophocles' Lexicon, under the word.)


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

From the same as euaggelizo; a good message ... [see next box]

https://biblehub.com/greek/2098.htm




  • Strong's Concordance

    euaggelizó: to announce good news

    Original Word: εὐαγγελίζω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: euaggelizó

    HELPS Word-studies

    2097 euaggelízō (from 2095 /eú, "good, well" and angellō[/aggelos], "announce, herald") – properly, proclaim "the good message" (good news).

    In the NT, 2097 (euaggelízō) refers to sharing the full Gospel of Christ – literally, "gospelizing" that announces the complete message of "the good news" (the Lord's glad tidings).

    https://biblehub.com/greek/2097.htm



NB.


εὐαγγέλιον

Etymology
From εὐάγγελος (euángelos, “bringing good news”), from εὐ- (eu-, “good”) +‎ ἄγγελος (ángelos, “messenger”).
  • → Latin: evangelium1 (see there for further descendants)
    • → Old French: evangile, evangelie, evangelie
      • French: évangile
    • → Italian: vangelo
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B5%E ... E%BF%CE%BD


  1. Etymology
    "From Ancient Greek εὐαγγέλιον (euangélion, “good news”). Written as a Latin word first in ecclesiastical writers".2
2 Does that mean that the ecclesiastical writers' Greek usage of εὐαγγέλιον is secondary to ecclesiastical writers' Latin usage of evangelium ??
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MrMacSon
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Re: Relation between "Gospel" and "Chrestos"?

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:08 am
So do we have εὐαγγέλιον of χρηστός[?] or εὐαγγέλιον of χριστός?

... Why is Paul's message "good news"? Is it "good news" because it is news about "Good [IS]"?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace 'of [XS]' and are turning to a different good news— 7 which is really not good news at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the good news of [XS].

Perhaps ambiguity was part of the schtick (ie. part of the 'good [and mysterious] messaging'] ??

Berean Literal Bible version of Gal 1:6:


6 I am amazed that so quickly you are deserting from the One having called you in the grace 'of Christ' to another gospel, 7 which is not another, except there are some who are troubling you and are desiring to pervert the gospel of 'Christ'.1

8 But even if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel - εὐαγγελίζηται - to you contrary to what we proclaimed - εὐηγγελισάμεθα - to you, let him be accursed!


The Greek; https://biblehub.com/text/galatians/1-6.htm ff

1 "τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τοῦ ['Χριστοῦ']" = "the 'gospel' the [XS]"


eta
I subsequently came across this
rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:42 am
I'm not sure if this approach has any merit, its just a thought experiment.


1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus the Good and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me,

To the churches in Galatia:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus the Good, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Good and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Good. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Good.

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus the Good.


We [might be] on the same page ( sort of / kind of )
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