How often would someone be referred to as the son of the mother, why, when, where?Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon?
http://www.whyislam.org/comparative-rel ... n-of-mary/
How often would someone be referred to as the son of the mother, why, when, where?Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon?
FWIW Mark 6:3 reads in some early witnesses (P45 vid et al) the son of the carpenter and MaryBen C. Smith wrote:It does seem to be unusual. Mark 6.3ab:
3ab Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?
Both Matthew and Luke are more conventional here, even though Matthew 13.55-56a does at least name Mary as his mother:
55 Is this not the son of the carpenter? Is his mother not called Mary and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56a And are not all his sisters with us?
Luke 4.22b sticks to the patronymic only:
22b Is this not a son of Joseph?
Lots of scholars assume that Joseph was dead or otherwise out of the picture at this time; hence the rare matronymic expression. But there is no proof that this is the reason for it.
Matronymics do crop up in various times and places, especially in cases when the mother was famous or influential in her own right. Henry II of England was also called Henry FitzEmpress, for example; his father was a "mere" Count, but his mother was Empress Matilda.
If Mark really did use the matronymic here, then it is easy to see why Matthew and Luke changed it to something more conventional. But I have to admit that "son of Mary" sounds a bit Marian to me (I mean, a bit reminiscent of the veneration of the Virgin Mary). Yet Mark, of course, lacks a birth narrative and betrays no knowledge of the virgin birth; is it possible that "son of Mary" is a later addition to the Marcan text?
Ben.
It seems that the reading "son of Mary" fit together with Mark 3:31-35andrewcriddle wrote:FWIW Mark 6:3 reads in some early witnesses (P45 vid et al) the son of the carpenter and MaryBen C. Smith wrote:It does seem to be unusual. Mark 6.3ab:
3ab Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?
Both Matthew and Luke are more conventional here, even though Matthew 13.55-56a does at least name Mary as his mother:
55 Is this not the son of the carpenter? Is his mother not called Mary and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56a And are not all his sisters with us?
Luke 4.22b sticks to the patronymic only:
22b Is this not a son of Joseph?
Lots of scholars assume that Joseph was dead or otherwise out of the picture at this time; hence the rare matronymic expression. But there is no proof that this is the reason for it.
Matronymics do crop up in various times and places, especially in cases when the mother was famous or influential in her own right. Henry II of England was also called Henry FitzEmpress, for example; his father was a "mere" Count, but his mother was Empress Matilda.
If Mark really did use the matronymic here, then it is easy to see why Matthew and Luke changed it to something more conventional. But I have to admit that "son of Mary" sounds a bit Marian to me (I mean, a bit reminiscent of the veneration of the Virgin Mary). Yet Mark, of course, lacks a birth narrative and betrays no knowledge of the virgin birth; is it possible that "son of Mary" is a later addition to the Marcan text?
Ben.
Andrew Criddle
31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
I would like to know how nettlesome this statement for the ancients was.Clive wrote:How often would someone be referred to as the son of the mother, why, when, where?Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon?
http://www.whyislam.org/comparative-rel ... n-of-mary/
But Matthew und Luke seems to formulate in a manner that avoids the appearance of a titleὁ υἱὸς τῆς Μαρίας
the son (of) the Mary
Matthew
οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τοῦ τέκτονος υἱός
Not this is the (of) the carpenter's son?
Luke
Οὐχὶ υἱός ἐστιν Ἰωσὴφ οὗτος
Not son he is (of) Joseph, this one?