Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

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JoeWallack
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:

2:5

Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology Commentary
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj -
3708 [e] idōn ἰδὼν having seen V-APA-NMS -
3588 [e] ho - Art-NMS -
2424 [e] Iēsous Ἰησοῦς Jesus N-NMS -
3588 [e] tēn τὴν the Art-AFS -
4102 [e] pistin πίστιν faith N-AFS -
846 [e] autōn αὐτῶν of them, PPro-GM3P 1. The cause of the healing is the faith of the presenters
3004 [e] legeiλέγει says V-PIA-3S -
3588 [e] τῷ to the Art-DMS -
3885 [e] paralytikō παραλυτικῷ· paralytic, Adj-DMS 2. Nice contrast between the paralyzed subject and all the movement of the subject by others.
5043 [e] Teknon Τέκνον, Son, N-VNS 3. Mistranslation I think. The neuter = "child". 4. "Teknon", remarkably similar to "tekton". Probably just a coincidence.
863 [e] aphientai ἀφίενταί are forgiven V-PIM/P-3P -
4771 [e] sou σου of you PPro-G2S -
3588 [e] hai αἱthe Art-NFP -
266 [e] hamartiai ἁμαρτίαι. sins. N-NFP 5. Surprising/Suspicious(textually) for a number of reasons -
1) Emphasis has been on the presenters with the implication that it is their faith that is the cause of the healing.
2) Expectation that the result here would have been healing. However - the text, as "Mark" is wont, does indicate that Jesus immediately continues with the healing proclamation. There is than an implication that Jesus was going to directly follow the forgiveness with the healing but was interrupted in doing so by the scribes (who are thereby walkblocking).
3) The big surprise is the specific apparent connection here between sin and sickness with no related explanation. In general there has also been no mention of this relationship in GMark up to this point. There is a post pericope related comment in the next story, "They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." GMatthew/GLuke likewise show the relationship with no prior explanation which is evidence that it is original to GMark.

So the question is, would the Reader make the connection between sin and healing at 2:5? I think this would have been an existing belief to some extent at the time and would therefore be less surprising 2,000 years ago than it is now. "Mark" has also set up a great punchline here with the subsequent "Which is easier?". The Scribes passionate objection is to forgiving as if it is something extraordinary, as opposed to miraculous healing, but the irony is that forgiving is easy, anyone can do it, as opposed to miraculous healing. A story right in the middle of "Mark's" wheel house (so to speak). All things considered then, it's the Scribal interruption that makes the offending verses seem like an interruption, a Reader could have made the sin/healing connection by themselves, "Mark" does make the sin/healing connection in the next story and 2:5 is a set-up for typical Markan irony, makes me judge the offending verses as likely pure Markan with no narrative source.




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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote:All things considered then, it's the Scribal interruption that makes the offending verses seem like an interruption, a Reader could have made the sin/healing connection by themselves, "Mark" does make the sin/healing connection in the next story and 2:5 is a set-up for typical Markan irony, makes me judge the offending verses as likely pure Markan with no narrative source.
Can you please lay out exactly what you take to be scribal interruption and what you take to be purely Marcan?
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

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Ben C. Smith wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:All things considered then, it's the Scribal interruption that makes the offending verses seem like an interruption, a Reader could have made the sin/healing connection by themselves, "Mark" does make the sin/healing connection in the next story and 2:5 is a set-up for typical Markan irony, makes me judge the offending verses as likely pure Markan with no narrative source.

Can you please lay out exactly what you take to be scribal interruption and what you take to be purely Marcan?
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JW:
I can see why you misunderstood me. Regarding "the Scribal interruption" above, I'm referring to the Scribes within the pericope.

I started writing that post assuming that I would conclude that there was editing of an original story. When I was finishing the post I changed my mind. I now think the entire pericope is an original Markan creation with no source narrative. As the story is written, it is the Scribes within the story that object to Jesus saying sins are forgiven, that is the main reason why there seems to be an interruption in authorship to us. "Mark" (author) does sacrifice consistency throughout the Gospel in order to emphasize a specific point being made at the time. As I mentioned, the odd part (forgiving) is that the text in question seems to divert from a regular healing story. Yet the odd part, forgiving, is clearly a critical theme in GMark, and is needed for the payoff question, which is easier, forgiving or miraculous healing. Even as a member of the disloyal opposition, I am a charter member of the Markan fan club. What most distinguishes the Markan Jesus is not the impossible healing. It is the possible serving and suffering. You can not be like Jesus as far as miraculous healing, but you can be like him as far as forgiving, because it is much easier. If there is any Divine evidence for the Christian Bible, it is the literary skill of this author.


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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote:I can see why you misunderstood me. Regarding "the Scribal interruption" above, I'm referring to the Scribes within the pericope.

I started writing that post assuming that I would conclude that there was editing of an original story. When I was finishing the post I changed my mind. I now think the entire pericope is an original Markan creation with no source narrative.
Ah, I see now. Thanks for explaining. Scribes = characters in the story, not later copyists giving Mark a working over.
As the story is written, it is the Scribes within the story that object to Jesus saying sins are forgiven, that is the main reason why there seems to be an interruption in authorship to us. "Mark" (author) does sacrifice consistency throughout the Gospel in order to emphasize a specific point being made at the time. As I mentioned, the odd part (forgiving) is that the text in question seems to divert from a regular healing story. Yet the odd part, forgiving, is clearly a critical theme in GMark, and is needed for the payoff question, which is easier, forgiving or miraculous healing. Even as a member of the disloyal opposition, I am a charter member of the Markan fan club. What most distinguishes the Markan Jesus is not the impossible healing. It is the possible serving and suffering. You can not be like Jesus as far as miraculous healing, but you can be like him as far as forgiving, because it is much easier. If there is any Divine evidence for the Christian Bible, it is the literary skill of this author.
What about the awkward construction (a ἵνα clause within dialogue leading to a "he said" statement outside of that dialogue!)? Is that just Mark being Mark, in your estimation?
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Michael BG »

John Collins suggests that in “But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Mk 2:10) the son of man probably is being used as a messianic title p 261-62 (I think he has been influenced by his wife – Yarbo Collins “the Origin of the Designation” p 146-51), but he doesn’t give any details why this might be.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Indeed but I am happy to recognise that it has four meanings - used to mean any man, used to mean me or I, the speaker, used to mean a particular group that can be inferred from the context and used to mean the heavenly being of Daniel 7. Plus a fifth that it was used as a title for Jesus.
I am familiar with all of those meanings except perhaps "a particular group inferred from the context." Do you happen to have an example of that usage?
I am very sorry I haven’t been clearer, Maurice Casey suggests that Mk 2:10 is in this group. I think Q Mt 8:20 / Lk 9:58 is another example.
And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head."
From its context (being said to someone suggesting that they become a follower of Jesus) it can be seen that this applies to both Jesus and his disciples.

Geza Vermes in Appendix E of Matthew Black’s An Aramaic Approach to the Gospels and Acts discuss the use of son of man in Jewish Aramaic for “‘some people’ in the sense of certain individuals” giving 4 examples, the first might in the clearest – “there are (son of man) who study the law” (Y. Pea 21b [line 7 from bottom]) p 319.

Maurice Casey gives as an example “an Aramaic inscription written c. 750 BCE” (Sefire III, 14-17) where son of man refers to the descendants of the king of Kittik. A second example given by him is Gen.R. 79,6 written c 148 CE where son of man refers to R.Simeon ben Yohai and his son (p359-60).
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:If showing the reaction is a "normal tradition", why could it not form a part of the original story? Or are you saying that there was a time during which such reactions were not typically recounted, but then they became popular at some point?
Using the term “original story” is unhelpful.
That is not fair. You used the term "secondary", and "original" is no more than a synonym for "primary" in this context. If there is no such thing as anything original, then there is no such thing as anything secondary. I am asking why you think that the element of the people reacting to the miracle was added to something when it is a "normal tradition" to show such reactions. That is all.
The reason I think it is unhelpful is because when I think of it, I think of what is historical, but you don’t and therefore I would find it helpful if it was defined when used in a question. Within a discussion piece it is defined by the context.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
I do accept that it would be part of the tradition received by Mark. My point is that it is an early Christian addition to the story to make it agree with such traditional miracle stories and as such shouldn’t be considered historical.
Why can it not be part of the very first version of the story ever told? Why can it not be that the very first time anybody ever related the story (whether historical or not), the crowd's reaction was a part of it?
I don’t think it would be, for example say a man was in the house and went home and told his wife, I don’t think the glorying God would be part of the story. Only once there were Christians would it be added.
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

In the OP I argued that two passages in Mark show evidence of having material added to them. Each of these passages also repeats or at least paraphrases something from a source. In the process, an awkward transition is produced. In what follows the repeated material is in green, whereas the addition or change is in red.

The first passage is Mark 2.1-12:

1 When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them. 3 And they come, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men. 4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying. 5a And Jesus seeing their faith says to the paralytic, 5b “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, says to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? 10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — He says to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” 12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

In this case the source is this Marcan passage itself, and the line which is repeated is "says to the paralytic". The repetition gets the pericope back on track after the digression, but (this is important) it also makes an awkward grammatical link between dialogue and narration, which really ought to remain separate from one another.

The second passage is Mark 3.20-35:

20 And He comes home, and the crowd gathers again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.” 22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.” 23 And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished! 27 But no one can enter the strong man’s house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house.” 28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” — 30 since they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.” 31 Then His mother and His brothers arrive, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they say to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” 33 Answering them, He says, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He says, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

In this case nothing from the pericope itself is being repeated; rather, a saying from church praxis about accepting prophetic utterances (as pointed out in the OP) is being repeated or paraphrased. But the additional line or change to the source, meant to make the transition from the saying to the Marcan context more intelligible, manages again (this is important) to create an awkward grammatical link between dialogue and narration, which, as mentioned above, really ought to remain separate from one another.

In the first case, the additional or changed material included dialogue, while the repeated material was narration. In the second case, the additional or changed material was narration, while the repeated material was dialogue (originally church instructions, now placed upon Jesus' lips). But the result is the same: a glitch right at the point at which dialogue gives way to narration or vice versa.

Now, on another thread I have written:
Ben C. Smith wrote:One can look at the sorts of things ancient authors do to their known sources (Josephus with Kings and Chronicles; Matthew and Luke with Mark; and so forth) to get an idea of what reacting to a source may look like; then, when one finds similar features in Mark, it can form the basis for arguing that there is a source at work somehow.
I intend to offer an example of this very thing here and now. This is a matter of working from the known to the unknown. If two texts whose relative order we can agree upon show a certain pattern, one text serving as source for the other, and then a standalone text seems to follow this pattern all by itself, it stands to reason that this standalone text may be working from a source, as well. This present example will work if you agree that, in general, canonical Luke borrowed from canonical Mark, and not the other way around. Since we are presuming that Luke used Mark, the relevant additions or changes made to the Marcan exemplar will be in red in the Lucan column, while the repeated text will be in green, again in the Lucan column.

Mark 1.40-45
Luke 5.12-16
40 And a leper came to him, imploring him, and kneeling said to him, “If you will, you can make me clean.” 41 Moved with pity, he stretched out his hand and touched him and said to him, “I will; be clean.” 42 And immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean. 43 And Jesus sternly charged him and sent him away at once, 44 and said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest [σεαυτὸν δεῖξον τῶ ἱερεῖ] and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to them.” 45 But he went out and began to talk freely about it, and to spread the news, so that Jesus could no longer openly enter a town, but was out in desolate places, and people were coming to him from every quarter.12 While he was in one of the cities, there came a man full of leprosy. And when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and begged him, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.” 13 And Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately the leprosy left him. 14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest [δεῖξον σεαυτὸν τῶ ἱερεῖ], and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.” 15 But now even more the report about him went abroad, and great crowds gathered to hear him and to be healed of their infirmities. 16 But he would withdraw to desolate places and pray.

In this case, Luke has changed part of Mark's direct address to indirect address, but has then lapsed back into direct address, creating (once more) an awkward grammatical link between dialogue and narration.

I suggest that this sort of weird grammatical transition from dialogue to narration or from narration to dialogue is a very plausible indicator that a source has been modified, as shown by how Luke 5.14 has modified Mark 1.44. We find such weird grammatical transitions in the two Marcan pericopae identified in the OP; therefore it is very plausible that Mark himself is following (but also adding to or modifying) a source.
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Michael BG
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Michael BG »

Mark 3.19b-27, 31-35
Then he went home;
[20] and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat.
[21] And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself."
[22] And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el'zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons."
[23] And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan?
[24] If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
[25] And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
[26] And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.
[27] But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house.

[31] And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
[32] And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."
[33] And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
[34] And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
[35] Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Mk 3:28-30
[28]"Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
[29] but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" --
[30] for they had said, "He has an unclean spirit."
Mark does not use the term “Holy Spirit” very often (Mk 1:8, 3:29, 3:30, 12:36, and 13:11). He sometimes just uses “spirit” where “Holy Spirit” would be suitable (Mk 1:10, 1:12). Mark also has a couple of spirits of Jesus (Mk 2:8, 13:12) and one spirit of the disciples (Mk 14:38). It is possible that Mark’s inconsistency is the result of the differing traditions that reached him.

I cannot disagree with the idea that Mk 3:28-30 does not need to be in this context as Mk 3:19b-27 and Mk 3:31-35 could have existed as separate stories which Mark has grouped together. Neither Matthew nor Luke has their version of Mark 3:31-35 straight after their version of Mk 3:3b-22. Matthew has a couple of Q saying before his version and Luke has his in the opposition order (11:17-23, 8:19-21). I am content to see verse 30 as being a Marcan addition to link his separate saying verses 28-29 to his context in verse 22.

Maurice Casey believes that Mt 12:22-32 / Lk 11:14-23, 12.10 are from Q and not Mark as both include the healing of a dumb demoniac. His English translation of his Aramaic version is:
[1] And he was casting out a demon, and it was dumb, and the demon came out and the dumb person spoke.
[2] And (people) were amazed. And (people) said, "By the ruler of demons he casts out demons."
[3] And he said to them, "Every kingdom which is divided against itself is laid waste, and every house which is divided against itself will not stand.
[4] And if Satan is divided against himself; how will his kingdom stand?
[5] And if I cast out demons by Ba’al Zebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Accordingly they will be your judges!
[6] And if I cast out demons by the finger of God, the kingdom of God has come upon you.
[7] When a/the strong man is armed and guards his courtyard, his possession are safe. And when one stronger than he comes and overpowers him, he takes away his armaments in which he trusted and divides the spoils.
[8] Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters me.
[9] And everyone who speaks a word against a/the (son of) man, it shall be forgiven him, and whoever speaks/has spoken a word against the spirit of holiness, it shall not be forgiven him forever.”
(An Aramaic Approach to Q p 148-49).

I am not convinced his re-creation is correct. Matthew has both the Marcan version of Mk 2:28 and the Lucan (Q) version 9 Lk 12:10). Q scholars prefer Luke’s order to Matthews, seeing Matthew grouping Q saying together while seeing Luke keeping the Q groupings.

It is likely that Luke has the Son of Man saying in the correct place in Q.

Lk 12:2-12
[2] Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
[3] Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
[4] "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
[5] But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!

[6] Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
[7] Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows.

[8] "And I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son of man also will acknowledge before the angels of God;
[9] but he who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
[10] And every one who speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

[11] And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or what you are to say;
[12] for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
Casey agrees with you and sees the saying in the Gospel of Thomas 44 as a more developed form of the Marcan one. He sees the original son of man replaced with the Christian term “the Son” and sees the addition of “the Father” as dependent on the later Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

So perhaps behind the Marcan saying is “Amen I say to you, everyone who speaks a word against the son of man, it shall be forgiven him, and whoever speaks a word against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him forever.” It is even possible that “the son of man” means any human.

Therefore it is possible that the whole saying was created by Christians quite early on (at the Aramaic stage) when lots of Christians were “moved by the Holy Spirit” and the Holy Spirit was their authority. However I find it difficult to believe that early Christians would create a saying where the term “son of man” means every human, rather than it meaning Jesus. I also find it hard to see Christians creating a saying that states it is OK to speak against Jesus. I am left very dissatisfied. I can agree that Mk 3:28-30 has been added into its Marcan context, but I can’t accept that it was created by early Christians or said in this form by Jesus.
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Michael BG wrote:I can agree that Mk 3:28-30 has been added into its Marcan context, but I can’t accept that it was created by early Christians or said in this form by Jesus.
What would eliminating those options even leave?
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Michael BG »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Michael BG wrote:I can agree that Mk 3:28-30 has been added into its Marcan context, but I can’t accept that it was created by early Christians or said in this form by Jesus.
What would eliminating those options even leave?
Quoting only part of the saying of Paul Daniels, “Not a lot”.

If Jesus said the saying then it is possible that he was talking about the heavenly Son of Man and the only being above him would be God (Yahweh) so the second half should refer to God. This might have been problematic if Jesus had used the word Abba on its own to refer to God. This would make the original saying
“Amen I say to you, everyone who speaks a word against son of man, it shall be forgiven him, and whoever speaks a word against father, it shall not be forgiven him forever.”
The word “father” would need modifying – “heavenly father”. This saying would not be very memorable and so could be open to being changed by early Christians to Holy Spirit as an aspect of God. The problem with this, is that I have no evidence for this. It is pure speculation.
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Re: Blasphemy, sin, & the spirit in Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Michael BG wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Michael BG wrote:I can agree that Mk 3:28-30 has been added into its Marcan context, but I can’t accept that it was created by early Christians or said in this form by Jesus.
What would eliminating those options even leave?
Quoting only part of the saying of Paul Daniels, “Not a lot”.

If Jesus said the saying then it is possible that he was talking about the heavenly Son of Man and the only being above him would be God (Yahweh) so the second half should refer to God. This might have been problematic if Jesus had used the word Abba on its own to refer to God. This would make the original saying
“Amen I say to you, everyone who speaks a word against son of man, it shall be forgiven him, and whoever speaks a word against father, it shall not be forgiven him forever.”
The word “father” would need modifying – “heavenly father”. This saying would not be very memorable and so could be open to being changed by early Christians to Holy Spirit as an aspect of God. The problem with this, is that I have no evidence for this. It is pure speculation.
I do not think Jesus ever uttered such a saying. I am pretty satisfied that its original context was early gatherings in which people would speak by the spirit. To question those speeches would be problematic for the speakers, so they opined that to do so constitutes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being channeled, so to speak.

But it is possible that there was another, separate saying about sin and forgiveness, something to the effect that the sons of men (= humans) are capable of being forgiven any trespass. This kind of saying fits in pretty well with the "loving Father" kinds of sayings found in various parts of the synoptic record, such as in the Sermon on the Mount/Plain. This saying I could imagine going back to an historical Jesus. I have no proof for or against such a proposition; I am just saying that the Sitz im Leben does not seem as clearly ecclesiastical as that of the other saying.

If so, what would be more natural than to combine the rule ("all sins will be forgiven the sons of men") with its only apparent exception ("whoever blasphemes against the Spirit will never be forgiven")? This is exactly what we find in 3.28-29, along with a bit of ornamentation.

The bit in Matthew 12.32 = Luke 12.10 about blasphemy against the son of man being forgivable seems quite secondary, a reflection of an inadequate understanding of the origins of these sayings.

Ben.
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