That is because (A) it is not always easy to tell when a quotation has ended in ancient texts, punctuation (including quotation marks) not being much of a thing back then, (B) sometimes quotes or paraphrases are suspected where the ancient author has not specifically given his/her source, and many modern collections are striving for completeness, not for discrimination (which can easily come later), and (C) some modern collectors of these fragments like to include more context surrounding the quotation than other collectors do.rakovsky wrote:One issue is that for some of these texts that are found in fragments across ancient writers, different modern editors can collect different fragments. The Text Excavation website gives some longer quotes than James does.
http://www.textexcavation.com/preachingpeter.html
First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
How about the Questions of Ezra:
If the Greek Apocalypse of Ezra was written by Christians, maybe it should be mentioned in the Christian section.
Do you think it could be as early as the second century AD?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Apocalypse_of_Ezra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questions_of_EzraThe Questions of Ezra is an ancient Christian apocryphal text, claimed to have been written by the Biblical Ezra. The earliest surviving manuscript, composed in Armenian, dates from 1208 CE. It is an example of the Christian development of topics coming out from the Jewish Apocalyptic literature.[1] Due to the shortness of the book, it is impossible to determine the original language, the provenance or to reliably date it.
If the Greek Apocalypse of Ezra was written by Christians, maybe it should be mentioned in the Christian section.
Do you think it could be as early as the second century AD?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Apocalypse_of_Ezra
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
The NSRV version of 2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras) with the missing text (ie not in the KJV) in Chp 7 is here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
The link to the RSV is down on the EARLY WRITINGS website page for 2 Esdras, so I advise just using the link I gave above.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
The link to the RSV is down on the EARLY WRITINGS website page for 2 Esdras, so I advise just using the link I gave above.
My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
Just for the record, 2 Esdras (= 4 Ezra) is available on the Early Jewish Writings website: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/2esdras.html. How Christianized any given Jewish text may be is a very valid question to ask, but in this case the text is listed; it is just listed on the Jewish side of the fence.rakovsky wrote:The NSRV version of 2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras) with the missing text (ie not in the KJV) in Chp 7 is here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
The link to the RSV is down on the EARLY WRITINGS website page for 2 Esdras, so I advise just using the link I gave above.
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
Interesting article:
I heard that 4 Esdras has a serious resemblance to 2 Baruch to the point where some considered they could be the same author.
Consider mentioning the Christian books in red on the list of Christian writings on the website.
Likely Christian influenced works not in Biblical apocryphas portraying themselves as part of the OT period.
Early 1st to late 5th c. Lives of the Prophets
1st to 2nd c. Testament of Abraham
1st to early 3rd c. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/ascensionisaiah.html
1st c. to 300 Apocalypse of Elijah http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/apocelijah.html
1st c. - 300 3 Baruch
1st c. -300 4 Baruch http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/4baruch.html
100-300 Testament of Jacob http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testjacob.html
100-400 Testament of Isaac http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testisaac.html
100-400 Testament of Adam http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testadam.html
100-400 Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (found in James H. Charlesworth, ed., “Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers,” The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha)
100-500 AD Apocalypse of Sedrach http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/apocsedrach.html
100-900 Greek Apocalypse of Ezra
Are any of these books listed in the Christian Deuterocanon or "Biblical Apocrypha", like Maccabees and 3-4 Esdras are?
Apocalypse of Daniel = 9th c.JEWISH PSEUDEPIGRAPHA AND CHRISTIAN APOCRYPHA:
(HOW) CAN WE TELL THEM APART?
James R. Davila
1. Works containing Christian signature features and no Jewish signature features: Sibylline Oracles 6, 7, 8; Greek Apocalypse of Ezra; Vision of Ezra; Questions of Ezra; Apocalypse of Sedrach; Apocalypse of Elijah; Apocalypse of Daniel; Testament of Abraham; Testament of Jacob; Testament of Solomon; Testament of Adam; Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah. I consider all of these to be Christian compositions with the possible exception of the Testament of Abraham.
2. Works with pervasive and extensive Jewish signature features and no Christian signature features: 4 Ezra; 2 Baruch; Testament of Moses; Pseudo-Philo; 3 Maccabees; 4 Maccabees; Psalms of Solomon. I consider all of these to be Jewish compositions transmitted with minimal Christian interference.
3. Works containing both Jewish and Christian signature features: Sibylline Oracles 3-5 (possibly two very small Christian interpolations?); 4 Baruch; Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs; Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers. In principle, these could be Jewish pseudepigrapha with Christian interpolations, Christian apocrypha making extensive use of Jewish sources, or works composed by Jewish or Judaizing Christians.
4. Works containing no Christian signature features and possibly a few Jewish signature features: Sibylline Oracles 11-12, Pseudo-Phocylides. These could be Jewish works, Christian works incorporating Jewish material, or works by Jewish Christians or Judaizing pagans or Christians.
5. Works containing Christian signature features and possibly also a few Jewish ones: Sibylline Oracles 1-2, 14; Lives of the Prophets; 3 Baruch; Testament of Isaac. These could be Christian works or Christian works incorporating Jewish material or Christian adaptations of Jewish works or works by Jewish Christians or Judaizing Christians.
6. Works containing neither Christian nor Jewish signature features: Similitudes of Enoch; Apocalypse of Zephaniah; Sibylline Oracles 13; Testament of Job; Joseph and Aseneth; Life of Adam and Eve; History of the Rechabites (Syriac version); Prayer of Manasseh; Sentences of the Syriac Menander. These could be Christian works (and this is the default position) but a wide range of other possibilities remain, to be argued, again, on the basis of positive evidence. For example, Syriac Menander could well be a pagan work adopted by Christians.
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/divinity/r ... ts/jcapoc/
I heard that 4 Esdras has a serious resemblance to 2 Baruch to the point where some considered they could be the same author.
Consider mentioning the Christian books in red on the list of Christian writings on the website.
Likely Christian influenced works not in Biblical apocryphas portraying themselves as part of the OT period.
Early 1st to late 5th c. Lives of the Prophets
1st to 2nd c. Testament of Abraham
1st to early 3rd c. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/ascensionisaiah.html
1st c. to 300 Apocalypse of Elijah http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/apocelijah.html
1st c. - 300 3 Baruch
1st c. -300 4 Baruch http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/4baruch.html
100-300 Testament of Jacob http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testjacob.html
100-400 Testament of Isaac http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testisaac.html
100-400 Testament of Adam http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testadam.html
100-400 Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (found in James H. Charlesworth, ed., “Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers,” The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha)
100-500 AD Apocalypse of Sedrach http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/apocsedrach.html
100-900 Greek Apocalypse of Ezra
Are any of these books listed in the Christian Deuterocanon or "Biblical Apocrypha", like Maccabees and 3-4 Esdras are?
My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
Why are some books like "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" in the "Christian" list on the EW site when they have only a few signs of Christian authorship, but others that scholars consider to have Christian parts (like 2 Esdras) in the "Jewish" list?
Maybe scholars can prove that Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs is Christian, but can't prove it for the others?
Maybe scholars can prove that Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs is Christian, but can't prove it for the others?
Last edited by rakovsky on Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
Okay, sorry. Thanks. I read too quickly.rakovsky wrote:Yes, I said that there is a page on the Early (Jewish) Writings site for 2 Esdras.Ben C. Smith wrote:Just for the record, 2 Esdras (= 4 Ezra) is available on the Early Jewish Writings website:. in this case the text is listedrakovsky wrote:The NSRV version of 2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras) with the missing text (ie not in the KJV) in Chp 7 is here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
The link to the RSV is down on the EARLY WRITINGS website page for 2 Esdras, so I advise just using the link I gave above.
BUT the link on the Early Writings webpage to the RSV with the missing verses is down.
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
Since the Gospel of the Hebrews is the only book that I think Eusebius lists as Antilegomena, ie. read commonly in churches but disputed, and is also lost it makes me think that it was intentionally suppressed. Maybe it had information that conflicted with the rest of the Christian narrative and this explains why it was erased.
Cyril of Alexandria opposed the Ebionites' gospel and burned it for calling the Holy Spirit Jesus' mother or calling Mary divine something like that. The Gospel of the Hebrews calls the Holy Spirit Jesus' mother, which actually is an allowable idea elsewhere in Christian tradition (eg. Justin Martyr and in a few statements I found in centuries after Cyril Alexandrine).
Cyril of Alexandria opposed the Ebionites' gospel and burned it for calling the Holy Spirit Jesus' mother or calling Mary divine something like that. The Gospel of the Hebrews calls the Holy Spirit Jesus' mother, which actually is an allowable idea elsewhere in Christian tradition (eg. Justin Martyr and in a few statements I found in centuries after Cyril Alexandrine).
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
Eusebius, History of the Church 3.25.3-5:rakovsky wrote:Since the Gospel of the Hebrews is the only book that I think Eusebius lists as Antilegomena, ie. read commonly in churches but disputed....
Among the disputed writings [των αντιλεγομένων], which are nevertheless recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of Jude, also the second epistle of Peter, and those that are called the second and third of John, whether they belong to the evangelist or to another person of the same name. Among the rejected writings must be reckoned also the Acts of Paul, and the so-called Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter, and in addition to these the extant epistle of Barnabas, and the so-called Teachings of the Apostles; and besides, as I said, the Apocalypse of John, if it seem proper, which some, as I said, reject, but which others class with the accepted books. And among these some have placed also the Gospel according to the Hebrews, with which those of the Hebrews that have accepted Christ are especially delighted. And all these may be reckoned among the disputed books [των αντιλεγομένων].
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb
Fized it for you.Ben C. Smith wrote:Eusebius, History of the Church 3.25.3-5:rakovsky wrote:Since the Gospel of the Hebrews is the only book that I think Eusebius lists as Antilegomena, ie. read commonly in churches but disputed, and is also lost it makes me think that it was intentionally suppressed.Among the disputed writings [των αντιλεγομένων], which are nevertheless recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of Jude,...
The others you listed have not been lost AFAIK, but they are listed as antilegomena. So this uniqueness of the Gospel of Hebrews among the antilegomena makes me think the reason it's lost could be intentional suppression.
Thank you for your attention to this thread.
Interesting issue:
The post-Christian-era Jewish rabbis did not hold on to the once-common Jewish apocryphal books, but the Christians did (eg. 3-4 Maccabees).
But the Christians seem to have suppressed some of their own apocryphal books that were once common.
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