Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

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JoeWallack
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Possible Explanation for the Superior Survival of "Angry" in Latin

Post by JoeWallack »

The Change It Had To Come

JW:
A possible explanation for the superior survival of the likely original "angry" in Latin as opposed to Greek is that as the Brave and Truthful Bart Ehrman points out Christianity got the large scale attention of the Pagans in the second century. The significant early Christian Critic was Celsus who wrote in Greek second century. Origen wrote the famous response to Celsus in the third century. We know from Origen's related writing that a major area of attack for Celsus was Jesus' supposed character in the Gospels. A Jesus who got angry at a leper for requesting healing could have been a criticism noted by Celsus. This would help explain why the Greek of 1:41 was changed before the Latin was:
  • 2nd century = Greek & Latin have "angry" as evidenced by "Matthew"/"Luke" & Diatessaron.

    3rd century = Greek Christianity sees "angry" as problem as pointed out by Celsus.

    4th century = Greek Christianity exorcises "angry" as evidenced by Sinaiticus/Vaticanus. Latin Christianity still has "angry".

    5th century = Latin Christianity likewise exorcises "angry".

    Subsequent Christianity exorcises early Greek manuscripts that had "angry".

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Re: Possible Explanation for the Superior Survival of "Angry" in Latin

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:29 amA possible explanation for the superior survival of the likely original "angry" in Latin as opposed to Greek is that as the Brave and Truthful Bart Ehrman points out Christianity got the large scale attention of the Pagans in the second century. The significant early Christian Critic was Celsus who wrote in Greek second century. Origen wrote the famous response to Celsus in the third century. We know from Origen's related writing that a major area of attack for Celsus was Jesus' supposed character in the Gospels. A Jesus who got angry at a leper for requesting healing could have been a criticism noted by Celsus. This would help explain why the Greek of 1:41 was changed before the Latin was:
  • 2nd century = Greek & Latin have "angry" as evidenced by "Matthew"/"Luke" & Diatessaron.

    3rd century = Greek Christianity sees "angry" as problem as pointed out by Celsus.

    4th century = Greek Christianity exorcises "angry" as evidenced by Sinaiticus/Vaticanus. Latin Christianity still has "angry".

    5th century = Latin Christianity likewise exorcises "angry".

    Subsequent Christianity exorcises early Greek manuscripts that had "angry".
That is a very interesting point. Overall, Joe, I think you are nailing it on this thread so far. Lots of solid points to consider.
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Re: Possible Explanation for the Superior Survival of "Angry" in Latin

Post by JoeWallack »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:10 am
JoeWallack wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:29 amA possible explanation for the superior survival of the likely original "angry" in Latin as opposed to Greek is that as the Brave and Truthful Bart Ehrman points out Christianity got the large scale attention of the Pagans in the second century. The significant early Christian Critic was Celsus who wrote in Greek second century. Origen wrote the famous response to Celsus in the third century. We know from Origen's related writing that a major area of attack for Celsus was Jesus' supposed character in the Gospels. A Jesus who got angry at a leper for requesting healing could have been a criticism noted by Celsus. This would help explain why the Greek of 1:41 was changed before the Latin was:
  • 2nd century = Greek & Latin have "angry" as evidenced by "Matthew"/"Luke" & Diatessaron.

    3rd century = Greek Christianity sees "angry" as problem as pointed out by Celsus.

    4th century = Greek Christianity exorcises "angry" as evidenced by Sinaiticus/Vaticanus. Latin Christianity still has "angry".

    5th century = Latin Christianity likewise exorcises "angry".

    Subsequent Christianity exorcises early Greek manuscripts that had "angry".
That is a very interesting point. Overall, Joe, I think you are nailing it on this thread so far. Lots of solid points to consider.
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Re: Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Summary of the argument for Angry:

EXTERNAL =
  • Manuscript
    • Offensive
      Greek = Bezae. 6th best full witness to GMark. No better witness to GMark for the most difficult readings. 169 505 508 1358 l866 omit.

      Latin = ita itd itff2 itr1. itb omit. These are some of the best Latin witnesses.
    • Defensive
      Fits pattern of extremely little quantitative support for very difficult readings. Has the least Manuscript support for perhaps the most difficult reading.
  • Patristic
    • Offensive
      GMatthew and GLuke omit even though they otherwise copy the story almost word for word. No good reason to exorcise "compassion". GMatthew/GLuke likewise exorcise the closely following two strongly negative emotional words ascribed to Jesus. GMatthew/GLuke only show their Jesus as compassionate and never angry. Diatessaron (Ephraem commentary). Egerton Gospel omit. All of this is the earliest Patristic reaction.
  • Authority
    • Text Critics
      • Offensive
        Bart Ehrman and other top Textual Critics

        Defensive
        Authority is mixed but generally those against are also against other likely original very Difficult Readings
    • Translations
      • Offensive
        NIV. NRSV footnote (probably the best translation)

        Defensive
        In general most translations have the less likely reading for very Difficult Readings

INTERNAL =
  • The Difficult Reading Principle
    • Transcriptional
      • Offensive
        Very Difficult Reading, especially with the choice between "angry" and "compassion". Possibly the most difficult reading.
    • Intrinsic
      • Offensive
        The emotion of anger by Jesus frames the Galilean Healing Ministry and is a demonstrated literary technique of "Mark". Undisputed angry Jesus at 3:5. "Mark" never shows Jesus as compassionate during healing. Context also matches as 1:41 & 3:5 both involve the issue of breaking the Ritual Law in order to heal. These stories also frame the six consecutive Conflict stories.
JW:
There are a number of important related points to make here regarding Textual Criticism. Perhaps the most important one is that Manuscript support is inversely related to the degree of Difficult Reading and this relationship can be extreme. In the case above we have one extant Greek manuscript for an extremely difficult likely original reading. This projects to the possibility that there are likely original readings, extremely difficult readings, with no extant Manuscript support.


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Re: Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

Post by iskander »

The Gospel of Mark 1:40ff

40 A leper* came to him begging him, and kneeling* he said to him, ‘If you choose, you can make me clean.’ 41Moved with pity,* Jesus* stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him, ‘I do choose. Be made clean!’ 42Immediately the leprosy* left him, and he was made clean. 43After sternly warning him he sent him away at once, 44saying to him, ‘See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.’ 45But he went out and began to proclaim it freely, and to spread the word, so that Jesus* could no longer go into a town openly, but stayed out in the country; and people came to him from every quarter.

Commentary,
Compassion or anger? What is the man / woman on the street to think of this life -giving action

Jesus chooses to make him clean, and in so doing he nails his colours to the door of the temple. Did he smile while he was doing this?, or was he looking in turmoil while he was doing this? .Did Martin Luther nail the 95 Thesis to the door of church at Wittenberg moved with pity, or was he overcome with anger while he cleansed the people ?.

It is in the interest of the Pharisees and of the other servants of the enslaving temple to promote anger as the reason for his defiance. The authority of the priestly caste was easier to protect with this choice . Jesus as" the angry young man" is the propaganda of the temple and it is this the one the interpretation that the Pharisees will disseminate.

But Jesus cleansed the outcast and sent him to tell wrongdoers of the existence of this oeuvre d'art, of this liberating power that exists in the will of ordinary men and women : that it is all that he did. But what was inside his mind? was he smiling or did he look sombre? .

The Pharisees wanted to convict an angry reformer who deserves the wrath of YHWH. They still do.
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Re: Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

Post by John T »

I read the arguments for "angry" but I don't recall the arguments against "pity".

So, why can't splanchnistheis (Mark 1:40) mean "moved with pity" instead of moved by anger?

Codex Sinaiticus uses "pity" not angry.

What is wrong with the Greek word for pity (4697)?

Sincerely,

John T
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Re: Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
I've posted the argument for "angry" as original to 1:41 at my Skeptical Textual Criticism Blog:

Why Must You Be Such An Angry Young Man? GMark 1:41 - Was Jesus Angry?

Everyone is welcome to comment, even Harvey Dubish, except for iskander.


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Post by JoeWallack »

John T wrote: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:17 am I read the arguments for "angry" but I don't recall the arguments against "pity".

So, why can't splanchnistheis (Mark 1:40) mean "moved with pity" instead of moved by anger?

Codex Sinaiticus uses "pity" not angry.

What is wrong with the Greek word for pity (4697)?

Sincerely,

John T
JW:
Ehrman's article I refer to was published in 2003. It helped fragment Christian Bible Scholarship's (CBS) opinion regarding 1:41 into "angry" likely original, "angry" a quality candidate and "angry" not a serious candidate for originality. The strength of Ehrman's argument is the "Matthew"/"Luke" reaction and The Difficult Reading Principle.

I have never seen a complete professional argument for "compassion". Traditional Textual Criticism (TTC) relies mainly on Manuscript evidence. Since there is only one Greek Manuscript with "angry" TTC concludes that "compassion" is original and is only then interested in what it considers a secondary debate, what is the strength of The Difficult Reading Principle here. Ehrman gives the related defenses of the UBS as:

1) Transcriptional -
  • 1. The Manuscripts have Jesus angry at 3:5 so this shows that Scribes were not resistant to showing Jesus as angry. The problem with this defense, as Ehrman points out, is that 3:5 has a good reason from a Scribe's standpoint, for Jesus to be angry, but 1:41 does not.

    2. The Aramaic words for "angry" and "compassionate" are very similar. Ehrman points out though that GMark was originally written and copied in Greek so this is not a reasonable explanation.
Not pointed out by Ehrman is that "angry' verses "compassion" is not just a Difficult Reading, it is a Very Difficult reading as the words are largely opposites and the picture of Jesus being angry with a leper for requesting healing is strongly against Scribes' image of Jesus. A very difficult reading with opposites supports intentional, such as "angry" to "compassion". But the TTC defense above is unintentional.

2) Intrinsic -
  • 1. No UBS defense.
For a current criticism of "angry", with even worse arguments against, see:

Mark 1:41 - Why the NIV is Wrong


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Why Must You Be Such An Angry Young Man? GMark 1:41 - Was Jesus Angry?
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Re: Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

Post by iskander »

John T wrote: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:17 am I read the arguments for "angry" but I don't recall the arguments against "pity".

So, why can't splanchnistheis (Mark 1:40) mean "moved with pity" instead of moved by anger?

Codex Sinaiticus uses "pity" not angry.

What is wrong with the Greek word for pity (4697)?

Sincerely,

John T
R.T. France in his excellent book writes:
Mark 1:41
" Textual notes
41. the reading 'anger ' is not widely attested ( D and a few OL) but is so striking and ' improbable' that a correction to the safer ' compassion' would be very natural, whereas it is hard to see why anyone should introduce angry.
The argument of Metzger ( Textual Commentary, 76) that the scribes did not find it necessary to remove other references to Jesus ' anger in 3:5; 1o:14 ignores the fact than in those passages , unlike here, there was obvious cause for anger. The lack of either participle in Matthew and Luke ( and in two OL MSS of Mark) also suggests the they found angry rather than the more congenial compassion in the tradition. "
The new international Greek Testament commentary. NIGTC
The Gospel of Mark
R.T. France
page 115

Many followers of Jesus must have felt anger and even perhaps they wrote about this event with anger against the cursed temple priesthood. Jesus himself may have experienced this emotion against the Mosaic religious police.

But Christian charity chose to forgive and the canonical edition has compassion in the text; compassion for the plight of the begging man and compassion for the ones who had forced him into that misery
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Re: Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

Post by andrewcriddle »

JoeWallack wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:41 pm

JW:
Ehrman's article I refer to was published in 2003. It helped fragment Christian Bible Scholarship's (CBS) opinion regarding 1:41 into "angry" likely original, "angry" a quality candidate and "angry" not a serious candidate for originality. The strength of Ehrman's argument is the "Matthew"/"Luke" reaction and The Difficult Reading Principle.

I have never seen a complete professional argument for "compassion". Traditional Textual Criticism (TTC) relies mainly on Manuscript evidence. Since there is only one Greek Manuscript with "angry" TTC concludes that "compassion" is original and is only then interested in what it considers a secondary debate, what is the strength of The Difficult Reading Principle here. Ehrman gives the related defenses of the UBS as:

1) Transcriptional -
  • 1. The Manuscripts have Jesus angry at 3:5 so this shows that Scribes were not resistant to showing Jesus as angry. The problem with this defense, as Ehrman points out, is that 3:5 has a good reason from a Scribe's standpoint, for Jesus to be angry, but 1:41 does not.

    2. The Aramaic words for "angry" and "compassionate" are very similar. Ehrman points out though that GMark was originally written and copied in Greek so this is not a reasonable explanation.
One issue here is that Codex Bezae (D) itself may have been influenced by a Syriac/Aramaic version of Mark.
See for example Aramaic influence on Bezae

Andrew Criddle
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