I also addressed this in a recent post on this thread -Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:20 pm But does literature prove the characters therein are NOT about or were based on real persons.
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pmNot necessarily as a one-off, combined event. It was likely, as the Catholic Encyclopedia says, that -Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:53 pm So you seem to think a group of anonymous writers got together and wrote a bunch of gospels and epistles, with all characters in them totally fictitious, and these documents became the foundation of Christianity.
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'The formation of the New Testament canon (A.D. 100-220)'
"The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm
There are no primary, contemporaneous sources that verify these obscure theology-related and theology-inspired characters.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:53 pm How do you know that Jesus & Paul, Cephas/Peter, John the Baptist, etc are fictitious?
- eta: Antiquities 18.5.2 / 116-119 does mention 'John called the baptist [the dipper]' but that could just have been the basis for the NT narratives about the NT character of the same name.
Josephus refers to the killing of JtB by Herod as a pre-emptive measure by Herod to quell a possible uprising;
The gospels present this as a consequence of the marriage of Herod Antipas and Herodias in defiance of Jewish law (as in Matthew 14:4, Mark 6:18)
Some have questioned the authenticity of Antiquities 18.5.2 / 116-119 -
- Whiston & Maier (1999) 'Flavius Josephus' in The New Complete Works of Josephus. Kregel Acad. ISBN 0-8254-2948-X; pp. 662–63.
- Feldman, Louis H. (1992). "Josephus", in Freedman, David Noel. Anchor Bible Dictionary 3; pp. 990–1.
- Rothschild, Claire (2011). ""Echo of a Whisper: The Uncertain Authenticity of Josephus' Witness to John the Baptist", in Hellholm, D; Vegge, T; Norderval, Ø; et al. Ablution, Initiation, and Baptism: Late Antiquity, Early Judaism, and Early Christianity. Walter de Gruyter, ISBN 978-3-11-024751-0; pp. 257–258.
- Evans, Craig A. (2006). "Josephus on John the Baptist", in Levine, Amy-Jill; et al. The Historical Jesus in Context. Princeton Univ Press. ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6.
- Nir, R (2012) Josephus’ Account of John the Baptist: A Christian Interpolation? Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus 10; 32–62
- Godfrey, Neil (2011) 5 reasons to suspect John the Baptist was interpolated into Josephus
- Whiston & Maier (1999) 'Flavius Josephus' in The New Complete Works of Josephus. Kregel Acad. ISBN 0-8254-2948-X; pp. 662–63.
That's illogical. A non-sequitur. Just because a Jewish character called Jesus was put at the center of the Christian religion does not make him historical or 'more necessary' for him to be historical'.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:53 pm What questions? about the historicity of Jesus? Why not: a Jew called Jesus was put at the center of the Christian religion. That's very legitimate (more: necessary) to define his historicity.
Jesus seems to have been a character developed over time - 'fleshed out' [ie. humanised] to give human meaning to the sacrifice of the deity.
He wouldn't have been retrofitted into Christian documents. He is likely to have been, as the Catholic encylcopedia says, "..the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations..".Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:53 pm Even the mythicists have to explain how that Jesus (historical or not) would have been retrofitted in these Christian documents.