This bit from John2 has sparked what is probably an insane idea in me, based simply on some of the kinds of posts floating around the forum at this exact time.John2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:03 am DC wrote:
The 66-70 CE war was the culmination of the Fourth Philosophy which began in 6 CE. Josephus connects the beginning and the end of the Fourth Philosophy in Ant. 18.1.1 and 18.1.6:But War 6.5.4 was about the oracle, and how the people misinterpreted it, making no connection whatsoever with 4th philosophy movements.
Ant. 18.1.1:
Ant. 18.1.6:Yet was there one Judas, a Gaulonite, of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Sadduc, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt, who both said that this taxation [in 6 CE] was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same; so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people, (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left,) and sometimes on their enemies; a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair, as did also the taking and demolishing of cities; nay, the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down by their enemies' fire. Such were the consequences of this, that the customs of our fathers were altered, and such a change was made, as added a mighty weight toward bringing all to destruction, which these men occasioned by their thus conspiring together; for Judas and Sadduc, who excited a fourth philosophic sect among us, and had a great many followers therein, filled our civil government with tumults at present, and laid the foundations of our future miseries, by this system of philosophy, which we were before unacquainted withal, concerning which I will discourse a little, and this the rather because the infection which spread thence among the younger sort, who were zealous for it, brought the public to destruction.
War 6.5.4:But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus's time [64 CE to 66 CE] that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy.
The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
So Josephus connects the time (and philosophy) of Judas with the time (and philosophy) of Florus, and given the presence of messianic DSS texts that date to the Herodian era and just prior to it, I don't buy the idea that Jews were not expecting that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth" before 66 CE. How else do you suppose that Judas the Galilean and Sadduc expected (and taught others) that God would "be assisting to them"? Were Fourth Philosophers really unaware of (or uninspired by) the DSS (most of which date to the Herodian era) and non-messianic until 66 CE?
John2 here highlights the Josephan arc having to do with the saga of Judas the Galilean: from rebel leader to inspiration for a revolt against Rome.
He may also be correct to tie the "ambiguous oracle" in with this nationalistic movement. I have long thought that the ambiguous oracle was either the 70 weeks of Daniel or some combination of prophetic texts which included the 70 weeks of Daniel; the key here is that the oracle seems to have predicted, not just the ascendancy of a ruler from the East, but also the timing of that ascendancy. The 70 generations of 1 Enoch may also fit in here. (My ideas on this thread work less well with the notion that, for example, a timely comet made people think that the Star and Scepter prophecy by Balaam was about to be fulfilled.)
But I have recently posted a bit about the generational prophecy of Mark 13.30 and its parallels:
What the ambiguous oracle and the generational prophecy share, of course, is the issue of timing: both seem to offer at least an approximate time for the end of days. Could they be connected? Could the ambiguous oracle, whatever it was, actually lie behind the generational prophecy? There need be no genetic connection; both the rebels and Jesus (or his apostles) could have simply been drawing upon a common interpretation of a common (Danielic?) text. But perhaps the connection is closer than that, after all. If John2 is correct about the oracle having been used or abused by the spiritual heirs of Judas the Galilean, then we have yet another correlation between Galileans and Christians to add to the ones we have already discussed:Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:12 pmMark 13.32-37 is all about not knowing the time, in contradiction to the preceding verses in which it is known which generation will see the end. Indeed, the entire idea of watching for the signs in verses 28-29 is at perfect odds with not having any clue of the time. Again, the obvious way of reading these contradictory statements is as not deriving from the same pen in the same time frame. The generational prediction must have arisen during the generation in question (using exactly the same logic by which Edgar Whisenant's pamphlet about the world ending in September of 1988 must have been published before September of 1988); but once that generation had died out, or perhaps very nearly, it became necessary to dampen its force. Presumably it could not be ignored in some circles (as John 21.21-23 also implies), not any more than Whisenant's prediction could be ignored in his circles, thus prompting his recalculation and ensuing prediction, in a new pamphlet, that the target year was really 1989, instead. That the motif of the unknown hour succeeded in reducing the force of the generational prophecy I have demonstrated elsewhere. It still serves that purpose in Christian churches to this very day.
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:39 pm To put it another way, we have Julian the Apostate and others calling Christians "Galileans" at some point, and "Galileans" is hardly the most expected epithet to put upon them. At the same time, we have three gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Peter) locating resurrection appearances solely in Galilee (and John locating one of them in Galilee after a few in Jerusalem), and Galilee is hardly the most expected venue to host such an appearance, since everybody (the disciples, the women, and the Lord himself) is already in Judea at the time. Two not quite expected things having to do with Galilee... are they connected? Or is it just a coincidence?
ETA: To see what I mean by "hardly expected," just think of what happened when three of the gospels located the appearances in Galilee: it turns out that Luke, John, Acts, and the bulk of later tradition seemingly could not wait to locate them in Jerusalem. But what happened once they were located in Jerusalem? Did some other venue sweep in to steal them away? Not that I know of. They stayed in Jerusalem, a most fitting spot from which retroactively launch a movement ("behold, I lay a stone in Zion").
If these data belong to the same basic conceptual arena, then we have a Galilean movement which has interpreted an ancient prophecy to mean that the end is coming soon. That Galilean movement could be either (A) the Fourth Philosophy informally inaugurated (according to Josephus) by Judas the Galilean or (B) the Christians (or both!), and that ancient prophecy could have come out either (A) as the ambiguous oracle or (B) as the generational prediction (or both!).Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:03 amAccording to Epictetus, the Galileans are obstinate unto death; according to Marcus Aurelius, the Christians are obstinate unto death. And now you are pointing out that the "movement" inaugurated by Judas the Galilean involved people who "reckoned as little the undergoing of various kinds of deaths" (θανάτων τε ἰδέας ὑπομένειν παρηλλαγμένας ἐν ὀλίγῳ τίθενται). Is this another coincidence? What do you think?lsayre wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:05 am Judas the Galilean was the author of the fourth branch of Jewish philosophy. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. (Antiquities 18.23)
60 And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:60)
What do you think?
Ben.