Babylon

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Babylon

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed May 02, 2018 8:23 pm

John2 wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:56 pm
I think that Deuteronomy 12.15-16 is simply allowing the eating of meat. It is not a sacrifice. The older view was that every time one ate meat, it had to be a sacrifice. Deuteronomy is saying that one can eat meat without it being sacrificial, but all sacrifices must be offered at the place of the name.
I disagree. I think this is why Dt. 12:15 says "as if it were gazelle or deer," i.e., they are the animals that Lev. 17 says must be brought to a sanctuary so that their blood can be put on an altar.
How is that not making the same point I made?

Maybe you read my "meat" as meaning any meat; but I meant the meat of animals normally considered sacrificial.
Animals that are hunted (like gazelle and deer) are not sacrificial animals, and Leviticus is consequently okay with pouring out their blood anywhere, but not so with cattle, sheep and goats.
Right, but Deuteronomy is okay with the spilling of the blood of cattle and other sacrificial animals apart from the sanctuary. So Deuteronomy is simply allowing the eating of the meat of nominally sacrificial animals without it constituting a sacrifice, just as eating deer is allowed without it being a sacrifice.
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DCHindley
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Re: Babylon

Post by DCHindley » Thu May 03, 2018 11:57 am

Without meaning to derail the conversation between Ben & John, when asked about the historicity of Ezra I like to remind folks that his genealogy is for the most part identical with that of Joshua son of Jehozadek, the HP who officiated at the time of prince Zerubabbel. In fact, what is said about the deeds of Joshua and Zerubabbel is mirrored in what is said about Ezra. I think Ezra is a mythical creation, a ghost of earlier days.

DCH

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DCHindley
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Re: Babylon

Post by DCHindley » Thu May 03, 2018 5:59 pm

Ahh, here it is!

Ezra
*
Jehozadak
Seraiah Seraiah Seraiah
Azariah * Azariah
Hilkiah Hilkiah Hilkiah
Shallum Meshullam Shallum
Zadok Zadok Zadok
* Meraioth *
Ahitub Ahitub Ahitub
Amariah * Amariah
Azariah * Azariah
* * Johanan
* * Azariah
* * Ahimaaz
* * Zadok
* * Ahitub
* * Amariah
Meraioth * Meraioth
Zerahiah * Zerahiah
Uzzi * Uzzi

For those who are not faint of heart, here is a tiny 120 page comparison of the sources (in English translations, which could use updating but give the general idea).

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Babylon

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu May 03, 2018 6:06 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:59 pm
For those who are not faint of heart, here is a tiny 120 page comparison of the sources (in English translations, which could use updating but give the general idea).

(Hindley, David C) Table of parallel passages in NEH-EZRA-1ESD-2ESD-2 CHR (expanded 2014-05-25, partly corrected 2017-09-07).pdf
Good gravy, man!
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John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 » Thu May 03, 2018 6:16 pm

Ben wrote:
Right, but Deuteronomy is okay with the spilling of the blood of cattle and other sacrificial animals apart from the sanctuary. So Deuteronomy is simply allowing the eating of the meat of nominally sacrificial animals without it constituting a sacrifice, just as eating deer is allowed without it being a sacrifice.
It's been about twenty years since I've thought about this issue, so I suppose I could use a refresher course. My impression was/is that Leviticus does not allow the secular eating of sacrificial animals (unlike Deuteronomy). IIRC, it doesn't address the issue, at least. This is why, in my view, there were so many "high places" and altars and temples up to the establishment of Deuteronomy. And why was there never a Passover celebration in Jerusalem until Josiah? As 2 Kings 23:22-23 puts it:
Neither in the days of the judges who led Israel nor in the days of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah had any such Passover been observed. But in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, this Passover was celebrated to the Lord in Jerusalem.


Where else did people celebrate Passover between the days of the judges and Josiah's time? Presumably at the various high places and the Shiloh and Elephantine temples. Even figures in the Deuteronomistic writings (despite all the talk about sacrificing in one place) sacrifice with God's approval outside of wherever it was at the time God "chose to put his name."

1 Sam. 7:7-9:
When the Philistines heard that Israel had assembled at Mizpah, the rulers of the Philistines came up to attack them. When the Israelites heard of it, they were afraid because of the Philistines. They said to Samuel, “Do not stop crying out to the Lord our God for us, that he may rescue us from the hand of the Philistines.” Then Samuel took a suckling lamb and sacrificed it as a whole burnt offering to the Lord. He cried out to the Lord on Israel’s behalf, and the Lord answered him.
1 Sam. 7:15-17:
Samuel continued as Israel’s leader all the days of his life. From year to year he went on a circuit from Bethel to Gilgal to Mizpah, judging Israel in all those places. But he always went back to Ramah, where his home was, and there he also held court for Israel. And he built an altar there to the Lord.


This was during the time Jeremiah says God had chosen to put his name in the Shiloh temple (in which Samuel had served). Deuteronomy retroactively "ruined" everything for everyone. Consider the law against kings having many wives. From my point of view this was a northern law aimed at southern kings like David and Solomon who had multiple wives. But from a "non-Deuteronomistic" perspective it was okay. But after Deuteronomy became established in Judah, it made these kings look bad (which was the original point, I'm thinking). Take the Damascus Document, for example, which excuses David for having many wives.

CD col. 5:
And concerning the prince it is written, He shall not multiply wives to himself (Deut. 17:17); but David had not read the sealed book of the Law which was in the ark (of the Covenant), for it was not opened in Israel from the death of Eleazar and Joshua, and the elders who worshipped Ashtoreth. It was hidden and (was not) revealed until the coming of Zadok.
Why were there so many high places (and altars and temples) before Josiah's time? Because, in my view, they were necessary because there was no such thing as secular slaughter of sacrificial animals (cattle, sheep and goats) prior to the establishment of Deuteronomy, and Deuteronomy, unlike Leviticus, had to grapple with the consequences of the centralization of sacrifices.

Dt. 12:20-25:
When the Lord your God has enlarged your territory as he promised you, and you crave meat and say, “I would like some meat,” then you may eat as much of it as you want. If the place where the Lord your God chooses to put his Name is too far away from you, you may slaughter animals from the herds and flocks the Lord has given you, as I have commanded you, and in your own towns you may eat as much of them as you want. Eat them as you would gazelle or deer. Both the ceremonially unclean and the clean may eat. But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat. You must not eat the blood; pour it out on the ground like water. Do not eat it, so that it may go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord.

From the perspective of Leviticus 17 (in my view), pouring the blood of these kinds of animals out onto the ground like that of gazelles and deer would be "bloodshed" and merit being cut off from Israel. But Leviticus did not have to deal with the ramifications of "if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put his name is too far away from you," since, as the OT itself indicates, there were many altars and high places to sacrifice animals.
Last edited by John2 on Thu May 03, 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DCHindley
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Re: Babylon

Post by DCHindley » Thu May 03, 2018 6:27 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:06 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:59 pm
For those who are not faint of heart, here is a tiny 120 page comparison of the sources (in English translations, which could use updating but give the general idea).

(Hindley, David C) Table of parallel passages in NEH-EZRA-1ESD-2ESD-2 CHR (expanded 2014-05-25, partly corrected 2017-09-07).pdf
Good gravy, man!
I've always preferred Herb Gravy for Beef over plain Brown Gravy, 'though it's hard to get 'round these here parts. Normally, I have to travel all the way from Bugtussle to Pixley to find any.

DCH

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Babylon

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu May 03, 2018 6:35 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:27 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:06 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:59 pm
For those who are not faint of heart, here is a tiny 120 page comparison of the sources (in English translations, which could use updating but give the general idea).

(Hindley, David C) Table of parallel passages in NEH-EZRA-1ESD-2ESD-2 CHR (expanded 2014-05-25, partly corrected 2017-09-07).pdf
Good gravy, man!
I've always preferred Herb Gravy for Beef over plain Brown Gravy, 'though it's hard to get 'round these here parts. Normally, I have to travel all the way from Bugtussle to Pixley to find any.
And now with the dated allusions to corny TV shows.... You are in fine form tonight, Hindley.
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DCHindley
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Re: Babylon

Post by DCHindley » Thu May 03, 2018 7:33 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:57 am
Without meaning to derail the conversation between Ben & John, when asked about the historicity of Ezra I like to remind folks that his genealogy is for the most part identical with that of Joshua son of Jehozadek, the HP who officiated at the time of prince Zerubabbel. In fact, what is said about the deeds of Joshua and Zerubabbel is mirrored in what is said about Ezra. I think Ezra is a mythical creation, a ghost of earlier days.
What I am alluding to is that both Zerubbabel/Joshua (Ezra 3:4), and Ezra (Neh 8:13-18), are said to have re-instituted the festival of Booths since the times of the Exile, but they are separated in time by, at minimum, 62 years and, at most, by 168 years.

Zerubbabel is said to do so in the 2nd year of Darius I (520/519 BC), no day & month given.

Ezra is said to have done so 2nd day of the 7th month in the 7th year of "Artaxerxes" (I = 458/457 BC; II = 398/397 BC; III = 352/351 BC)

But again, for the one who seeks truth, and accepts the wisdom relayed to me by Metatron the prince, behold a mere 71 page chronological reconstruction of the various legendary returns and/or governors, compiled from the RSV translation of the Hebrew text.

While it is simple and unsophisticated, it shows that most every passage in the book(s) of Ezra-Nehemiah can indeed be ordered into a sensible chronological order, whether right or wrong. But ... y'all know I love to be wrong.

Like everything I have put together over my many years, it could be improved upon, but there is a lot to take note of, and I provide all possible dates for events said to have occurred under their rules, so dig in, and don't forget the gravy:
Enjoy ...

DCH

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Babylon

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu May 03, 2018 7:40 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:33 pm
Like everything I have put together over my many years, it could be improved upon, but there is a lot to take note of, and I provide all possible dates for events said to have occurred under their rules, so dig in, and don't forget the gravy:

(Hindley, David C) EZRA-NEH Chronological Reconstruction (1997-02-22).pdf
We are way beyond gravy by now. This is more like curry.
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John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 » Fri May 04, 2018 12:26 pm

DC wrote:
But again, for the one who seeks truth, and accepts the wisdom relayed to me by Metatron the prince, behold a mere 71 page chronological reconstruction of the various legendary returns and/or governors, compiled from the RSV translation of the Hebrew text.

While it is simple and unsophisticated, it shows that most every passage in the book(s) of Ezra-Nehemiah can indeed be ordered into a sensible chronological order, whether right or wrong. But ... y'all know I love to be wrong.
I can't wait to take a look at it. I haven't been to the library much lately and I can't view pdf's on my work computer so I haven't been able to see it yet.
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