Babylon

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Babylon

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri May 04, 2018 2:02 pm

Hindley's PDF files are legendary, at least so far as I am concerned. I even have some hosted at my old site: http://www.textexcavation.com/dch.html.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

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DCHindley
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Re: Babylon

Post by DCHindley » Fri May 04, 2018 3:51 pm

John2 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:26 pm
DC wrote:
But again, for the one who seeks truth, and accepts the wisdom relayed to me by Metatron the prince, behold a mere 71 page chronological reconstruction of the various legendary returns and/or governors, compiled from the RSV translation of the Hebrew text.

While it is simple and unsophisticated, it shows that most every passage in the book(s) of Ezra-Nehemiah can indeed be ordered into a sensible chronological order, whether right or wrong. But ... y'all know I love to be wrong.
I can't wait to take a look at it. I haven't been to the library much lately and I can't view pdf's on my work computer so I haven't been able to see it yet.
John,

Is it that your work computer doesn't have some version of the free Adobe Reader, or that your employer frowns on reading PDFs on the job? What kind of work do you do, anyways? :scratch:

Now when I used to work from my home, and on salary so my work hours were whenever I needed to work (pretty much 55 hrs a week), I could take breaks between periods of work whenever I felt I needed it, and a lot of my research (as I call it) was done on the fly like this. We had Adobe Reader on the work computer in order to read PDF docs (I could do this when I was, say, in a hotel room 3-4 nights a week, eating White Castle "slider" hamburgers) and of course on my home computer (I was home 2-3 days a week, plus weekends).

You can probably find a used laptop with WiFi for as little as $100, with whatever way outdated software the former owner had on it, such as Word or Excel, unless of course you do not want one on principal.

DCH

John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:57 pm

Is it that your work computer doesn't have some version of the free Adobe Reader, or that your employer frowns on reading PDFs on the job?
I doubt my employer would mind if I read PDFs (I doubt they are even aware that I use the internet as much as I do), but I don't know anything about Adobe Reader. All I know is that when I click on PDFs on my work computer I get presented with options I don't understand and I'm not tech savvy enough to figure out how to make them work, but at the library it isn't an issue (maybe whatever is necessary to download them -Adobe Reader?- is already set up on the library computers? I don't know and don't really care).

I don't want a computer on principle. They are instruments of surveillance and manipulation. I've had people offer me some and I always refuse. I don't ever mean to sound like I'm complaining when I mention not having a computer and not being tech savvy, it just seems necessary sometimes to explain why I can't always respond very quickly or read a PDF at work.
May the four winds blow you home again.

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DCHindley
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Re: Babylon

Post by DCHindley » Fri May 04, 2018 6:31 pm

John2 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:57 pm
Is it that your work computer doesn't have some version of the free Adobe Reader, or that your employer frowns on reading PDFs on the job?
I doubt my employer would mind if I read PDFs (I doubt they are even aware that I use the internet as much as I do), but I don't know anything about Adobe Reader. All I know is that when I click on PDFs on my work computer I get presented with options I don't understand and I'm not tech savvy enough to figure out how to make them work, but at the library it isn't an issue (maybe whatever is necessary to download them -Adobe Reader?- is already set up on the library computers? I don't know and don't really care).
Those options are probably preferences for downloading and installing Adobe Reader (there are a couple forms of it out there - a basic version and a stripped down version) on your work computer. If your employer restricts ability to download or install files without authorization (of IT, usually), they may be asking you to give the secret password, do a specific electronic handshake, or respectfully suggest that you go at it in a permitted way.

It should be, in my experience at least, a pretty easy thing to do. So if you are encountering a lot of mumbo jumbo techy sounding requests, it is probably the case that Adobe Reader is not among the suite of programs your employer authorizes on the computers you use for your job, *and* they want to discourage you from trying to download an unauthorized program.

Most places recognize that Adobe products are, so far, fairly resistant to tampering by viruses that hope to insert malignant code into a PDF, which will execute when the document is open. This is why the local library has it on the public computers, and why most employers have it installed on their work computers/networks.

DCH

John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 » Fri May 04, 2018 7:28 pm

Wow. Thanks for all that, DC.

I'm amazed how tech savvy most people are these days. It's all over my head. Take my TV, for example (which I bought used at a thrift store for five bucks six years ago and is still going strong -stronger than the fancy new flat screen TV a friend gave me that conked out after a few months). I used to be able to plug in a TV with one cord, and then I pressed a button and it immediately turned on. And it was free. Now I have at least half a dozen cords attached to my TV, with a power strip and a tower and another box that blink lights 24/7, and I have to press several buttons for it to turn on. And it costs 115 bucks a month. I miss old TV.

I've tried the over-the-air digital converter thing but I don't get very many channels that way where I live (and there was a ridiculous amount of cords and contraptions for that too). But if I ever move somewhere with better reception I would definitely prefer to go back to free TV that way.
May the four winds blow you home again.

semiopen
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Re: Babylon

Post by semiopen » Sat May 05, 2018 10:54 am

John2 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:28 pm

...Take my TV, for example (which I bought used at a thrift store for five bucks six years ago and is still going strong ...
I sympathize with that, and wonder if your understanding of the bible is also mid 20th century earth.

Take the sacrificial stuff. I also used to think that everything had to be sacrificed in a high place before the centralization of worship and mentioned that on FRDB a few times, but it just seemed dubious. I'm younger than that now to paraphrase Bob Dylan.

It's also a pain in the ass to look up. I think that might be a Richard Elliot Friedman idea or maybe just an old generic Documentary Hypothesis guess.

Anyway, both Leviticus and Deuteronomy are mostly from the Persian period. Some God boys make a relatively rational argument that the Leviticus Holiness Code is pre-exilic (because of some similarities with Ezekiel) but that's far from a majority opinion.

John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 » Sat May 05, 2018 12:42 pm

Anyway, both Leviticus and Deuteronomy are mostly from the Persian period. Some God boys make a relatively rational argument that the Leviticus Holiness Code is pre-exilic (because of some similarities with Ezekiel) but that's far from a majority opinion.
As usual I appreciate your feedback and dislike your tone. I will bear your comment in mind.
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DCHindley
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Re: Babylon

Post by DCHindley » Sun May 06, 2018 6:41 am

John2 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:28 pm
Wow. Thanks for all that, DC.

I'm amazed how tech savvy most people are these days. It's all over my head.
Well, obviously I am technically challenged myself, especially when it comes to coding/programming. When I graduated HS in 1974 "programming" and computers were as big as a shop classroom, filled with IBM mainframe components (all as big as a full size metal filing cabinet) with the whirling tape drives and, I am absolutely sure, tubes! The data had to be laboriously punched out on the famous "IBM cards," and the programs were in the form of little round holes punched into rolls of paper about the width of an adding machine tape. It looked horribly tedious, so I decided then that I was not interested in it.

By the time I graduated college (1978) there was the TRS-80 mini-computer that home enthusiasts could buy as a kit and solder together, transistor by transistor, onto green boards. I don't even remember them having a way to store programs, and no storage drives either. Later, I saw one hooked up to a cassette tape drive as a "hard disk." One of my roommates was making one the whole dorm room constantly smelled like soldering flux. Hmmm. :eh:

Apple had come out with a unit that was so basic that there was only a floppy drive for data and programs. At least you could do your own programming, I think, but programs were still often fed to the CPU via command lines or at best some batch file that used a text file to load up the CPU commands. Again, tedious. Also, expensive ($5,000 USD in 1978, about the cost of a new car), which only made it available to the wealthy.

It wasn't until 10 years later that I relented and bought a used early model IBM clone called an Epson Equity II. This was one of the earlier 80286 processor based units, although 80286 chips were so hard to come by yet that they used two of the more readily available 80186 chips, which did the same thing. Following the lead of the IBM PC it had a 20 Mb HDD and a Monochrome monitor (green or amber), and 5.5 inch floppy drives. I remember getting it home and realized I also needed programs, and that the DOS operating system had to be fed instruction via a command line! So, I went to computer user group meetings to buy "shareware" on floppies. Eventually I found free word processors and spread sheets to mimic the big brand versions, like Lotus 123, MS Word and Corel WordPerfect, which still cost several hundred dollars each. VGA and SVGA video cards made it possible to see colors on suitable monitors. I think running a monochrome and a color monitor at the same time was not possible.

It was a big learning curve for me to start figuring out how to laboriously use DOS, one command line at a time (or as a batch file) to do even the simplest things. No built-in menus (some dBase programmers I knew were dead set against use of shareware menu programs, as the making of menus was one of their mainstay businesses)! No graphic interfaces. When the Windows GUI first came out, it still used the DOS operating system and was SLOOOOW! Over time that improved until Win 3 became stable, but only barely. Just use DOS.

I don't think that MS was able to get it really stable until Win 97. Things gradually improved thru Win 7, but after that MS really took a nose dive on reliability issues. After that, MS wants to do all your thinking for you. The problem is, their vision for using programs for work or play are limiting and cliché, and - I suspect - actually front ends for data mining conducted on a huge scale. Why else would they have tried to force feed us Win 10, even trying to trick computers to automatically install it without user authorization, if it wasn't REALLY good for MS? There has to be a revenue driven reason for this, or it is an admission that they can just barely control the beast they have created and have to limit opportunities for deadly embraces to occur. But they couldn't, or else we wouldn't have gone back to slow and clunky interfaces that freeze up a lot.

But I digress ...
Take my TV, for example (which I bought used at a thrift store for five bucks six years ago and is still going strong -stronger than the fancy new flat screen TV a friend gave me that conked out after a few months). I used to be able to plug in a TV with one cord, and then I pressed a button and it immediately turned on. And it was free. Now I have at least half a dozen cords attached to my TV, with a power strip and a tower and another box that blink lights 24/7, and I have to press several buttons for it to turn on. And it costs 115 bucks a month. I miss old TV.

I've tried the over-the-air digital converter thing but I don't get very many channels that way where I live (and there was a ridiculous amount of cords and contraptions for that too). But if I ever move somewhere with better reception I would definitely prefer to go back to free TV that way.
In "Antenna TV" days, I think we had 3 normal band channels (ABC, CBS & NBC) and 3-4 UHF channels. We used to have one of those big bi-pole antennas that had a motor to turn it so you got the best reception for any particular channel. Sometimes when the atmospheric conditions were conducive to "skip" we could tune in a station in London Ontario (about 60-70 miles north of Cleveland, Ohio, across Lake Erie) and I would watch "Sunshine School" which was a lot like Sesame Street. But this was usually only something we did after dark, as Mom thrust us out of the house as much as humanly possible so I didn't know what I was missing. Ben joked to me on another thread that I make allusions to many corny TV shows but in the 1960s & 1970s, but that was all we had available. There were a few good interview/talk shows and dramas then, though.

We knew people who had satellite TV systems, but talk about an array of receivers, really big motorized dishes and reception quality issues! They were toys for the rich. For a long while, even with cable TV, there was not much on. I remember watching many old B&W movies from the 1950s late at night. Now there is a tremendous amount of fairly insipid programming out there, with about 33% of airtime being commercials. Cable TV has always sucked, and has always been expensive.

Damn, I keep digressing ...

DCH

John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 » Sun May 06, 2018 10:07 am

I like you, Dave. You are one of the two "Daves I know," so this one's for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nvzEqsZIGo
May the four winds blow you home again.

John2
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Re: Babylon

Post by John2 » Sun May 06, 2018 10:36 am

I'm starting to wonder where/when/how the Samaritans fit into all of this. I know (like most things in this thread) the basics of Samaritan history (and appreciate its complexity and have enjoyed reading what others have been saying about it here) but now I want to take a fresh look at the Samaritans.

My "20th century" understanding is that they are descended from remnants of the northern kingdom of Israel who were blended with others who were settled among (and eventually converted/influenced by) them after the Assyrian exile and Jewish writings are generally hostile to them. But I was unaware, as noted here, that Chronicles has a different take on things than 2 Kings, and Magen's argument sounds intriguing and I would like to read more about it.
The emergence of the Samaritans as an ethnic and religious community distinct from other Levant peoples appears to have occurred at some point after the Assyrian conquest of the Israelite Kingdom of Israel in approximately 721 BCE. The records of Sargon II of Assyria indicate that he deported 27,290 inhabitants of the former kingdom.

Jewish tradition affirms the Assyrian deportations and replacement of the previous inhabitants by forced resettlement by other peoples but claims a different ethnic origin for the Samaritans. The Talmud accounts for a people called "Cuthim" on a number of occasions, mentioning their arrival by the hands of the Assyrians. According to 2 Kings and Josephus, the people of Israel were removed by the king of the Assyrians (Sargon II) to Halah, to Gozan on the Khabur River and to the towns of the Medes. The king of the Assyrians then brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avah, Emath, and Sepharvaim to place in Samaria. Because God sent lions among them to kill them, the king of the Assyrians sent one of the priests from Bethel to teach the new settlers about God's ordinances. The eventual result was that the new settlers worshiped both the God of the land and their own gods from the countries from which they came.

This account is contradicted by the version in Chronicles, where, following Samaria's destruction, King Hezekiah is depicted as endeavouring to draw the Ephraimites and Manassites closer to Judah. Temple repairs at the time of Josiah were financed by money from all "the remnant of Israel" in Samaria, including from Manasseh, Ephraim, and Benjamin. Jeremiah likewise speaks of people from Shekhem, Shiloh, and Samaria who brought offerings of frankincense and grain to the House of YHWH. Chronicles makes no mention of an Assyrian resettlement. Yitzakh Magen argues that the version of Chronicles is perhaps closer to the historical truth and that the Assyrian settlement was unsuccessful, a notable Israelite population remained in Samaria, part of which, following the conquest of Judah, fled south and settled there as refugees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans
Last edited by John2 on Sun May 06, 2018 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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