According to the Naassenes:
(Hippolytus, 5)
It would seem that the words of Hegesippus assume a distinction between the "gate" of Jesus (=the spiritual possession by a divine Christ) and Jesus himself.
A link please.John T wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:59 pm I joined this forum years ago trying to elicit a scholarly (respectful) discussion on that same subject.
Lesson learned from the first go around---since you cannot discuss the Door of Jesus without acknowledging the martyrdom of James the Just, meaning, that to acknowledge James the Just (the brother of Jesus) is to imply (ex post facto) that Jesus existed as well--- was taboo.
In other words, to make the argument that Jesus did exist as historical fact could result in calls for you to be banned from this forum as a fundamentalist and/or evangelist.
Such is the closed minded, dirty tactic of (pseudo-atheist) anti-Christians.
Now, years later, perhaps this forum is a little more open minded to your topic.
Still, I recommend you proceed with caution.
John T
Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
Rev. 3:11-12:These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut.
Rev. 3:20-21:I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Hegesippus in EH 3.20.6:The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: "You just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus." And he answered with a loud voice, "Why do you ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sits in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven."
You've got to get into (and out of) heaven somehow, I guess, and a door (or doors) seems apt.And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works.
Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him, 'What is the gate of Jesus?' and he replied that he was the Saviour. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one's coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.
But James doesn't say "it" (i.e., the gate) is the Savior, he says "he" (i.e., Jesus) is the Savior, which I reckon contextually must mean that Jesus is the heavenly savior who will go through the gate ("the gate of Jesus") in order to "come on the clouds of heaven."It is not necessary my quote of Hippolitus to realize that "the gate of Jesus is the Saviour" implies that the "Saviour":
1) is not God;
2) is a distinct being from "Jesus". Probably Christ.
Correct. The sentence is: Τινὲς οὖν τῶν ἑπτὰ αἱρέσεων τῶν ἐν τῷ λαῷ, τῶν προγεγραμμένων μοι (ἐν τοῖς Ὑπομνήμασιν), ἐπυνθάνοντο αὐτοῦ τίς ἡ θύρα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ, καὶ ἔλεγεν τοῦτον εἶναι τὸν σωτῆρα. Literally, James was saying that "this one" (τοῦτον) was the savior, where "this one" is masculine, in agreement with Jesus (τοῦ Ἰησοῦ), but not in agreement with door/gate (ἡ θύρα), which is feminine.John2 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 pmBut James doesn't say "it" (i.e., the gate) is the Savior, he says "he" (i.e., Jesus) is the Savior....It is not necessary my quote of Hippolitus to realize that "the gate of Jesus is the Saviour" implies that the "Saviour":
1) is not God;
2) is a distinct being from "Jesus". Probably Christ.