Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

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Joseph D. L.
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Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:10 pm

I realize that this may be a wholly inappropriate topic for discussion, so I'm leaving this question to anyone more knowledgeable on how human anatomy and biology was understood back then. All I know is that there was a connection between blood and semen, as well as water and semen, but was there ever a time and place where the two were synonymous with one another?

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:58 am

This isn't some weird kink of mine. (Okay, 'just' isn't). What I'm driving at is a continuation and extension of my theory that the blood and water that pours from Jesus is a baptismal ritual for the new covenant promoted by Paul, and the possibility that this baptism was itself a sexual baptism of sorts.

What gives this theory more, though marginal, credit for me, is how a similar concept was played out in Egypt. Upon death, the Nile issued from Osiris, expelling with it his blood and semen, thus creating the conditions of renewal that the Egyptians coveted so highly. The flood of Genesis also has this, with the waters of the earth and heavens, mixed with the blood of the wicked, creating a renewed world of righteousness.

But back to Jesus in regards to this, the author of 1 John links the blood and water of Jesus to baptism:

This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood.

The statement, "not by the water only", is referring to the baptism by John, a scene that is not present in The Gospel of John, oddly enough.

So the blood and water was connected to a baptism ritual, the only thing that remains is if this was a sexual baptism (meaning, that those who participated would be anointed with semen).

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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by gmx » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:24 am

Undoubtedly left-field, but certainly not inappropriate. I don't have any on-topic response to the subject you raise, but wanted you to know I think your question is valid / genuine. As per the "Greater Questions of Mary", such subjects have not historically been off-limits.
I saw a Naked girl ,Slowly emerge in front of me,Greek hairstyle,Very beautiful,She has a beautiful [fine] profile.; She is fine in profile. the view of profile,hard to tell.

lsayre
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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by lsayre » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:34 am

The entire "bridal chamber" motif of Christianity seems perverted to me. Ditto the Eucharist, and mentions of various men whom Jesus "loved". Let alone the young man who ran away naked....

And then there is "Secret Mark".

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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by jude77 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:38 pm

Hello Joseph DL
I would suggest that JN 19:34 be interpreted in light of John's overall theological thrust rather that introducing Osiris. In the context on John's theological arc, the blood would represent Jesus being the sacrificial Passover lamb. Notice that to enforce that symbolism John synchronizes Jesus' crucifixion with the sacrifice of the lambs in 19:14, "Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour." So Jesus is being killed at the same time as the lambs,

The water symbolism is more complex. On one hand it certainly references the water of baptism, but in John water is a deeper metaphor for transformation that leads to submission to God's will. I don't have the time to fully develop that idea here, but it begins in John 2:1-9 where water is transformed into wine (thus beginning the transformation metaphor), and reaches it denouement in John 13:4-5 where Jesus pours water into a basin and then washes his disciples feet as an act of humility and submission. i believe in John's mind Jesus' willingness to be crucified the ultimate act of submission to God's will, so the water in JN 19:34 should be linked with the water in 13:4.
lastly, another theme that John develops is that Jesus replaces the temple and he becomes the locus of salvation (see John 2:18-22). If that is correct then water flowing from him would be a symbolic reference to Ezekiel 47 where Ezekiel sees water flowing from the restored temple to the Dead Sea and thereby filling the sea with life. In that case what John would be saying that at the cross water flows from Jesus as the temple into the heart of the believer filling him/her with life. I know that is a complex exegesis, and I hope it makes sense.

So, to answer your question, I guess the water/blood motif could be a reference to semen, but I guess I'd be a little a little skeptical of that analysis. But that's just me.

All the best to you.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:19 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:58 am

... Upon death, the Nile issued from Osiris, expelling with it his blood and semen, thus creating the conditions of renewal that the Egyptians coveted so highly ...
.
Upon whose death? Osiris's? What do you mean by "the Nile issued from Osiris"? Suddenly?

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MrMacSon
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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:28 pm


The Nile was the artery of life in Egypt.The living King and Pharaoh was Horus, and when he died hebecame Osiris, the dead King of the Nether World. Osiris also appeared as the divine power immanent within the Nile, and particularly within the waters of the flood. The low Nile was the disappearance of the god and this was mourned, and the coming of the flood was Osiris’ revitalisation and restoration. When the Nile’s inundation took place the event was celebrated with great festivals.Hence, Osiris was both the King of the Nether World and the god of the life-giving inundation creating fertility. However, it was not water as such that was worshipped, but the inherent power of rejuvenation and recreation.

Terje Oestigaard (2010) Osiris and the Egyptian Civilisation ofInundation: The Pyramids, the Pharaohs andtheir Water World


‘The crown prince, born a man, became Horus not before his father had become Osiris. Osiris and Horus were, by their very nature, the royal deceased father and his living royal son’, and consequently, as Anthes argues, ‘it was the king’s transition from Horus into Osiris which confirmed his existence as an eternal being’(Anthes 1959: 175, 180).

Conclusion

It was Horus the Son who killed Seth and made his father Osiris eternal and rejuvenated him through the life-giving waters in the Eye. Therefore, the actual funeral ceremonies had a double function. The deceased Horus became eternal as Osiris and Horus the Son became the new Pharaoh by killing Seth and transforming his father into the Nile and the annual,life-giving waters. Horus the Son as the Pharaoh was the living God who mastered and controlled all life through the waters and the successful inundation.

The annual inundation was the actual efflux of Osiris – his deceased father. As the river turned red-brownish during the summer, this was the blood of the rejuvenated Pharaoh, who was transformed into Osiris and the annual flood, which gave life and prosperity to all of Egypt. It was the deceased’s son, the new Pharaoh as Horus the King, who was responsible for this transformation, and the new king was not coronated before his father was successfully transformed into the life-giving flood when his efflux covered the whole of Egypt. The discharge of Osiris thus gave life to the dead king and to his people, rejuvenating Egypt and her inhabitants, and the source of all life had its origin in the Nile itself and the physical characteristics of the river which changed throughout the year
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:31 pm

Could the water be a metaphor or parable for amniotic fluid released during 'breaking of the waters'?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:49 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:31 pm
Could the water be a metaphor or parable for amniotic fluid released during 'breaking of the waters'?
I like MacDonald on this point. For me, the most likely answer is simply that the epistles of John came before the gospel of John:

Dennis R. MacDonald, The Dionysian Gospel, pages 159-160: For the elder, the two elements consistently are "water" and then "blood," presumably as metaphors for baptism and the Eucharist. The order in the Gospel, however, is "blood and water"; these liquids no longer pertain to rituals but to the physicality of Jesus's death, which corresponds with the risen Jesus's invitation to Thomas to touch his wounds in what we have seen is another likely redactional insertion. "[T]he best explanation of 19:34 is that it is later than 1 John 5:6-7 since the author of 1 John could not be referring to the text of 19:34 as the explanation of 'comes in water.' Rather, 19:34 is included by the author of the third edition as an affirmation within the narrative of the Gospel of what was expressed theologically in 1 John" [Von Wahlde, A Commentary on the Gospel and Letters of John (3 vols.; ECC Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2010), 1:380].

Therefore, the water and the blood were originally intended to indicate the principal Christian rites: baptism and blood, respectively, but the author(s) of the gospel used the epistles, sometimes confusingly, and in this case both the water and the blood come out as symbols of Jesus' death, thus covering the eucharistic angle but reflecting the baptismal angle only at some cost in terms of coherence; this can definitely happen when ideas are forced into a theological construct.

ETA:

1 John 5.6-8: 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

John 19.34-35: 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.

ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Could the blood and water that issued forth from Jesus be a euphemism for semen?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:14 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:19 pm
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:58 am

... Upon death, the Nile issued from Osiris, expelling with it his blood and semen, thus creating the conditions of renewal that the Egyptians coveted so highly ...
.
Upon whose death? Osiris's? What do you mean by "the Nile issued from Osiris"? Suddenly?
Yeah. The Pyramid Texts and Coffin Spells has the Nile being produced from Osiris's corpse. It's not just his blood and semen, but all bodily fluids and infections, like bile and pus.

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