Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

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Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:24 am

Actually, that pic above, with the word contiguous and the British Library, was my late night error, since they were using St. Catherine's pages, which were subject to environmental disaster, as the left page.

==============================

The four actual contiguous pages are on:

Four Contiguous Points
http://www.sinaiticus.net/four%20contig ... oints.html

And here is one: (images and attachments seem to have quirks today)
point one.jpg
point one.jpg (179.05 KiB) Viewed 2466 times
Leipzig vs BL.jpg
Leipzig vs BL.jpg (46.67 KiB) Viewed 2466 times
A difference that is far beyond any lighting issues, and is confirmed by Gavin Moorhead, British Library Conservator who worked on the CSP project and specifically wrote us that:

"the Leipzig folios are notable for their whiteness."

He was far more honest and forthright about the leaves than couple of writers who try to pretend there was no difference. He does make an allusion to the difference being from conservation and storage, but that simply does not make sense, when you look at the history and the evidences. It was sort of the obligatory theory. :)

You can look at the two pages here:

British Library
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manus ... omSlider=0

Leipzig
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manus ... omSlider=0

And why the differences?
See "Two Main Holdings" above.

============================

The idea that there were separated is a Tischendorf myth. He very carefully stole five intact quires (3+2) from the bound manuascript, which is 80 of the 86 leaves. The other 6 leaves include the critical to the charade Esther colophon in a sixth quire contiguous to the fifth.

All the leaves were white parchment when seen by Uspensky together the next year.

Steven
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Kapyong
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Kapyong » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:31 am

Gday ulan :)
Ulan wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:51 am
At least for a moment I'm sure I'm not deterring anyone, but maybe someone else who reads the thread doesn't swallow the story told herein hook, line and sinker.
You've done good work,
it doesn't look like anyone here believes any of their nonsense about colour changes.

Kapyong

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John T
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by John T » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:35 am

Ulan wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:51 am

However, you can easily see how someone may lose their patience and come to the conclusion that they are not dealing with genuine interest but with a nutjob with an agenda (Steven being a KJVonlyist isn't exactly a secret). Then you look closely into the claims this person makes, the claims that fueled the inquiry in the first place, and the natural reaction is to just put a stop to it. The last thing you want in your professional career is to be associated with a band of lunatics.
I can't help but point out the irony of your ad hominem against KJVonlyists (King James Bible only, Christians).

Seems to me the best way to shut them up would be to just go ahead and do the appropriate scientific testing on the Codex Sinaiticus and prove it is not a hoax. ;)

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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Secret Alias
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:55 am

So every asshole that comes along with a printed pages from internet websites should dictate where money should be spent in academic departments that have for the most part been subject to budget cuts? Here's my suggestion: get the funds (from a like-minded donor) to pay for the testing from a reputable company and maybe we're on to something. But let's face the facts with regards to where money should be spent, I think this is low on the list of priorities.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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John T
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by John T » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:06 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:55 am
So every ****** that comes along with a printed pages from internet websites should dictate where money should be spent in academic departments that have for the most part been subject to budget cuts? Here's my suggestion: get the funds (from a like-minded donor) to pay for the testing from a reputable company and maybe we're on to something. But let's face the facts with regards to where money should be spent, I think this is low on the list of priorities.
You would think a wealthy atheist/mythicist would jump at the chance to prove the Codex Sinaiticus is a fraud just like all of Christianity. Likewise, I have little doubt, there are dozens of post-grad students trying to get their PhD that would salivate at the chance to do modern DNA testing and radiocarbon dating on those pages.

Any other excuses for not seeking the truth? :roll:

John T
Last edited by John T on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:07 pm

Kapyong wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:31 am
it doesn't look like anyone here believes any of their nonsense about colour changes.
Kapyong
That means they ("anyone") would have to avoid actually looking at the Codex Sinaiticus Project photographs, and prefer staying ignorant about the early history of the ms.

If fact, the more realistic defenders of authenticity will accept the colour difference, and then just vaguely chalk it up to conservation and storage differences. And then shut their eyes.

The Sinaiticus history is truly amazing on many aspects. Study, and learn.

Steven
Last edited by Steven Avery on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:11 pm

John T wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:06 pm
You would think a wealthy atheist/mythicist would jump at the chance to prove the Codex Sinaiticus is a fraud just like all of Christianity. Likewise, I have little doubt, there are dozens of post-grad students trying to get their PhD that would salivate at the chance to do modern DNA testing and radiocarbon dating on those pages.
Money is not the issue. The Libraries have to allow testing, and they clearly are very nervous about the results (thus the 2015 planned Leipzig tests were cancelled.)

They will simply try to stay "scholarship consensus", and thus "we don't need any testing, we know its 4th century".

For now, that is the roadblock for testing, not $.

Steven

Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:24 pm

Ulan wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:51 am
It's not embarrassing, that's how human beings tick. As you can see from Steven Avery's posts, even in the last answers to me, scientists have shown to be very helpful on first contact. That's because they usually love the field they work in and probably find the question they are asked interesting and worthwhile. However, you can easily see how someone may lose their patience and come to the conclusion that they are not dealing with genuine interest but with a nutjob with an agenda (Steven being a KJVonlyist isn't exactly a secret). Then you look closely into the claims this person makes, the claims that fueled the inquiry in the first place, and the natural reaction is to just put a stop to it. The last thing you want in your professional career is to be associated with a band of lunatics. That's why I suggested that the push for more testing must come from a more neutral party. It may sound counterintuitive, but the activities of the group behind Steven may even prevent people from going along with testing at this point.

Just look at Steve Avery's post above this. Honestly, what would you think of someone who uses that image of two successive online pages as a valid reason for suspicion of any kind. A "normal" person would just assume that the book had obviously fallen apart between those pages, and we still find parts of the Codex nowadays in vastly different locations in the St. Catherine's monastery (last find was 2009). You don't pick the worst example page to judge the parchment, you look for one that didn't fall into a puddle or lay under a leaky roof.
Note that we show a composite image of EVERY page .. check the www.sinaiticus.net site and the cover of David W. Daniels book. So whether we look at individual contighous pages, or every page, you will complain.

Your discourse about the scientists is interesting. Some experts have kept ongoing dialog, but they are under a lot of pressure not to say anything publicly. Plus, the atomistic nature of modern inquiry puts them at a disadvantage, they generally only know about one or two parts of the Sinaiticus authenticity controversy.

Plus, I am not particularly pushing for testing. First, lets have some simple examination. Very few people have handled both sections. Why are they so supple? Why do they lack acid-deterioration? Why does 1845 ink look like ink on parchment that is supposed to be 1000-1500 years older?

There has been a bit of a charade, and some simple discussion and examination will show the real issues. Historical inquiry as well (e.g. The Uspensky translation, the Tischendorf theifts, and how did Simonides have so many "called shots".)

Testing will be wonderful, if it occurs. And I am quite confident that BAM style testing will totally destoy the ink and parchment theories behind the Tischendorf "conspiracy theory".

As for the book falling apart between those pages .. if you study the history, it was all intact as one unit until Tischendorf stole the quires in 1844. And later it is quite clear that Tischendorf disassembled the existing codex.

However, you do not know the history. It is easier to argue for authenticity in ignorance.

Steven

perseusomega9
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by perseusomega9 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:37 pm

John T wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:06 pm

You would think a wealthy atheist/mythicist would jump at the chance to prove the Codex Sinaiticus is a fraud just like all of Christianity.
I'm not sure how one possible forgery helps or hinders any mythicist case. Earlier manuscripts with variant texts are the bread and butter of mythicism, with the exception of a late manuscript preserving an older reading from a lost exemplar.

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John T
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by John T » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:56 pm

perseusomega9 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:37 pm
John T wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:06 pm

You would think a wealthy atheist/mythicist would jump at the chance to prove the Codex Sinaiticus is a fraud just like all of Christianity.
I'm not sure how one possible forgery helps or hinders any mythicist case. Earlier manuscripts with variant texts are the bread and butter of mythicism, with the exception of a late manuscript preserving an older reading from a lost exemplar.
Great, so the mythicist community wouldn't care one way or the other but what about the atheist community?
Why don't the likes of Richard Dawkin, et al., use their influence and call for testing?

Thanks in advance.

I'm starting to get the feeling the real reason for not handing it over for testing is because the owners fear (already know?) that it will be found out to be a fraud and suffer a huge financial loss. :consternation:

What is the value of a fake Rembrant?

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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