toejam wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:37 pm
I don't see the need for Marcion here. Many apocalyptic Jews of the 2nd Temple period believed in a mass resurrection, with the unfaithful to then be judged and annihilated in the flames of Gehenna. That is what I suspect Matt 10:28 is about.
Your claim that this verse is 100% Marcion is asserted surety with no justification.
Really? Can you show an example of this mass resurrection belief in Jewish literature? Unless you are saying Matthew is Jewish.
This looks like a vague assertion without much evidence. As much of a mess a Giuseppe's thoughts are, he at least throws his evidence out for all to see before falling down with logical errors.
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For the record, the verse is most definitely not Marcionite, but an expansion upon and response to the Marcionite in Luke 12:4-5. Giuseppe has managed to get it all backwards (again).
The story really is a retelling of Orpheus' visit to Hades to convince Pluto, ruler of the underworld, to release his wife Eurydice. And in fact it is Hades where the dead go. However in Matthew's account the body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna, which seems to be the equivalent of or same as Tartarus, the abyss or pit which a river of fire, Phlegethon, leads to in the underworld. We get a picture of this in the Lazurus and the Rich Man story of Luke 16:19-29. With that background, here was the reply I was going to enter:
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Giuseppe,
Matthew 10:28 is a development on the text from Luke, or rather the Marcionite version of Luke
12.4 "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body (ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεινόντων τὸ σῶμα), and after that have no more that they can do. 12.5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed (τὸν μετὰ τὸ ἀποκτεῖναι), has power to cast into Hell (ἔχοντα ἐξουσίαν ἐμβαλεῖν εἰς τὴν Γέενναν); yes, I tell you, fear him!"
What is worth noting is in the Marcionite/Luke text is that the killer of the body (σῶμα) cannot do anything more, he cannot touch the soul. But the one who can throw you into Gehenna (Γέεννα) is to be feared.
Luke/Marcion uses Gehenna in no other place. This is the worst place one can go, it is the pit (βόθυνον) of Luke 6:39 (also Matthew 15:14). This is different from Hades (ᾍδης), the underworld, the land of the dead and ruled in Greek mythology by Hades (Pluto) which makes one appearances in the Marcionite Gospel. And it has a most useful description, where in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, in verse 16:23, where both Lazarus and the Rich man reside - however they are separated by a great chasm which is fixed so that one cannot reach from the area of comfort (i.e., Elysium) to the area of anguish and flames (i.e., Tartarus). So Hades can be both a good and a bad place. But Hades is not Gehenna. It is more like purgatory. Christ will come raise the good to Heaven in his visit, leaving the wicked to their fate.
Luke 10:15 where Capernaum is fated for Hades is not in Marcion (per Zahn). It came into Luke from Matthew.
But Matthew 10:28 is derived from Luke/Marcion 12:4-5. And we know that because an adjustment is made to the passage to fit his Catholic/Ebionite like theology. He specifically spells out that the one who kills (ἀποκτείνω) the body (σῶμα) doesn't kill the soul (ψυχὴν). But in Gehenna the body and the soul are destroyed (ἀπολέσαι). This destruction after death is meant to make it impossible for resurrection, as Matthew believes in a bodily resurrection. Preservation of the body is important (see Acts 2:27, 2:31 which talks about Jesus' body in Hades not suffering any decay) for the resurrection is bodily. We see that in Matthew 27:52-53 where the bodies (σώματα) of the saints rose and were seen throughout city.
These are specific adjustments to the Marcionite presentation, which saw resurrection as spiritual. Matthew found it necessary to specify that body and soul are destroyed by Satan in Gehenna, so that for such a person no resurrection is possible.
And this is clear because Matthew makes further references specifically the Gehenna in this complete destruction manner: in 5:22 speaking IMO about heretics, 5:29-30 for offending eyes and hands, which are a repeat of 18:8-9 which speak of Gehenna and the "fire" of the pit referred to in the Lazarus story (if Gehenna is Tartarus and not a separate hell), and Matthew 23:15, 33 which IMO has Pharisees as stand-ins for heretical clergy. Mark has just a single Foot-Hand-Eye passage and in typical style says Gehenna once for each, while in the Epistle of James the mention is for the offending tongue (add that to the Foot-Hand-Eye having fun).
Note: 2 Peter 2:4 makes a specific reference to Tartarus (ταρταρώσας) as where the wicked are thrown. This is the closest link between Tartarus and Gehenna, as they seem to be the same place or function the same.
What Matthew has done is subtly pass the punishment in Gehenna from the Just God (who is also the high god) to the devil or Satan, a fallen angel who replaces the Greek Hades or Pluto/Orcus as the ruler of the evil section of the dead.
So again you have built things cart before horse. Matthew has greatly expanded the Luke story and shown a physical resurrection.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift