Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
nightshadetwine
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Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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nightshadetwine wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:57 pmThe only issue I have with the three lower kingdoms representing the three days is I can't find much information about how popular this idea of different kingdoms was in those days. According to the book "Animal, Vegetable, Mineral? How eighteenth-century science disrupted the natural order" by Susannah Gibson the different kingdoms date back to at least Aristotle:
Since the time of Aristotle, there had been a clear divide between the three kingdoms of animal, vegetable, and mineral.
Does anybody have any information on whether this was a common thing in ancient times?
I think that animals, vegetables (= plants), and minerals were pretty well distinguished by ancients in many ways. But I am not sure to what extent they were made into formulaic categories as distinct as the quasi-rhyming Victorian animal/vegetable/mineral scheme would imply. The six days of creation in Genesis 1 separate plants from animals, but the plants take one day to create while the animals take two. Pliny's Natural History dedicates separate groups of books to animals, vegetables, and minerals, without much overlap so far as I can tell. If these divisions were formalized into a threefold pattern in antiquity, I too would be interested in reading about it.

What was formulaic in antiquity was the fourfold division of animalkind into beasts of the land, birds of the sky, fish of the sea, and crawling things. These four categories come up time and time again in the Hebrew scriptures, for example. This typology evolved into the concept of primacy in the medieval period, with the lion being thought of as the primate (king) of beasts, the eagle as the primate of birds, and either the dolphin or the whale as the primate of fish (modern biological niceties distinguishing between true fish, marine mammals, and other nonpiscine inhabitants be hanged).
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nightshadetwine
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:23 pm I think that animals, vegetables (= plants), and minerals were pretty well distinguished by ancients in many ways. But I am not sure to what extent they were made into formulaic categories as distinct as the quasi-rhyming Victorian animal/vegetable/mineral scheme would imply. The six days of creation in Genesis 1 separate plants from animals, but the plants take one day to create while the animals take two. Pliny's Natural History dedicates separate groups of books to animals, vegetables, and minerals, without much overlap so far as I can tell. If these divisions were formalized into a threefold pattern in antiquity, I too would be interested in reading about it.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the three days representing the three kingdoms below humanity. I've read that the three days are associated with the sun and also the moon. I think it does have some kind of esoteric meaning because it seems to show up in a lot of myths.
nightshadetwine
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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nightshadetwine wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:36 pm From "Porphyry's Against the Christians: The Literary Remains" By R. Joseph Hoffmann:
... In the Dionysiac cult, the god redeemed adherents from a world of darkness and death by 'revealing himself' in ecstatic visions and providing glimpses of a world-to-come.
This isn't a dig at nightshadetwine, but the frequent semantics/ language of the commentary around a lot of ancient religious concepts is at best 'interesting', and at worst illogical and misleading.

The situation isn't gods "revealing themselves" - it's accounts of perceptions of visions and dreams, and 'a dreamworld' was a pervasive concept, big from ~2-300 bc/bce to ~ 2-300 ad/ce (eg. the works of Aelius Aristides such as Sacred Tales (Hieroi Logoi)).
During the Hellenistic era (the first three centuries of the Common Era) ... dream incubation [took place in dedicated] temples that were staffed by priest-physicians.

In fact, dream temples made up the single most popular spiritual healing institution in the Mediterranean world. These restful sanctuaries were designed to produce dreams that provided healing wisdom —and also instant cures— if we are to believe the boasts of ancient graffiti.

The divine figure associated with these dream temples is Aesclepius, the Greek god of healing. When doctors take the Hippocratic oath today, they still give thanks to Aesclepius and his daughters.

http://dreamstudies.org/2011/12/04/5-as ... -dreaming/
As the new religion of Christianity developed, they adopted some of the European and Greek heritage. Early Christians had to accept the idea that at least some dreams had a divine inspiration. The bible mentions a lot about dreams and God communicated through them. The dreams of the New Testament were seen as straightforward messages from God, the disciples and other founders of Christianity ..

In dreams, they would see visions of the bible and God would grant them gifts and provide them with guidance. Dreams are reliable messengers. They reveal the condition of one’s heart (dan.2:30) as well as the voice of God within one’s heart. (Acts 2:17) The bible says that when people wake up from their dreams,they act upon them.

https://www.academia.edu/3100958/Ancien ... out_Dreams
See http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1554
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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nightshadetwine wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:36 pm I still lean more towards there being a historical Jesus that, by the time of Paul, was turned into a Mystery cult savior/logos. A mystery cult formed around him after he died and some of the members of the cult started having visions of Jesus which was pretty common in cults during that time.

I'm just trying to interpret Paul's writings as if he's not talking about a historical Jesus but of a logos type being that symbolically "died" by leaving his "father" or the divine realm and entering the physical realm in order to give humanity eternal life and salvation.
There could well have been a historical human Jesus, but I think there's a question of when he would have existed. And when Paul existed (if he did; Paul could just be a literary character, as Jesus could be).

(I think that a person the NT Jesus character was based on could have lived in the 2nd century, and could have been based wholly or partly someone like R. Joshua ben Hananiah (d c. 130 AD/CE) or Joshua b. Neḥunya.

Another question is whether there was a messianic or Christ cult (or several Christ or messianic cults), separate to a Jesus cult.

eg. tablet found at Qumran, dated before the time of the NT Jesus, gives an account of vision of [an] apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai, and has speaks of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days - https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/worl ... wanted=all
nightshadetwine
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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MrMacSon wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:49 pm This isn't a dig at nightshadetwine, but the frequent semantics/ language of the commentary around a lot of ancient religious concepts is at best 'interesting', and at worst illogical and misleading.

The situation isn't gods "revealing themselves" - it's accounts of perceptions of visions and dreams, and 'a dreamworld' was a pervasive concept big from ~2-300 bc/bce to ~ 2-300 ad/ce (eg. the works of Aelius Aristides such as Sacred Tales (Hieroi Logoi)).
Yeah, I don't believe they literally were visited by gods or even necessarily had hallucinations(maybe some did). I think they would maybe just get "ideas" or have dreams that they interpreted as being some kind of revelation from their god. Is that what you're saying?
nightshadetwine
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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MrMacSon wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:21 pm Another question is whether there was a messianic or Christ cult (or several Christ or messianic cults), separate to a Jesus cult.

eg. tablet found at Qumran, dated before the time of the NT Jesus, gives an account of vision of [an] apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai, and has speaks of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days - https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/worl ... wanted=all
I didn't know about this. See, these ideas were around before Christianity. The Dead Sea scrolls show Hellenic influence so the idea of some kind of future dying and resurrecting savior or messiah was already being "created". This idea probably come out of Hellenized Jewish sects that were influenced by Greco-Roman religion.
nightshadetwine
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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MrMacSon wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:21 pm Another question is whether there was a messianic or Christ cult (or several Christ or messianic cults), separate to a Jesus cult.

eg. tablet found at Qumran, dated before the time of the NT Jesus, gives an account of vision of [an] apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai, and has speaks of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days - https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/worl ... wanted=all
I didn't know about this. See, these ideas were around before Christianity. The Dead Sea scrolls show Hellenic influence so the idea of some kind of future dying and resurrecting savior or messiah was already being "created". This idea probably came out of Hellenized Jewish sects that were influenced by Greco-Roman religion.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Plutarch's Osiris, Philo's Logos, and Paul's Jesus.

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MrMacSon wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:21 pmAnother question is whether there was a messianic or Christ cult (or several Christ or messianic cults), separate to a Jesus cult.

eg. tablet found at Qumran, dated before the time of the NT Jesus, gives an account of vision of [an] apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai, and has speaks of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days - https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/worl ... wanted=all
I for one would love it if the Hazon Gabriel is what some purport it to be. But IIUC there are questions about the correct reading at the crucial point (as to whether it ought to be "in three days live" or "in three days the sign"); also, the possibility of forgery present.
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