Okay, if that is what he is asking, then I think that your response is as good as any and probably better than most.DCHindley wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:13 pmI think Rafael is seeking to know how much confidence we can have that the Greek writer Origen said what his Latin translators said he said.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:44 pm But the quote survives in Latin, not in Greek (apparently). The Latin translation comes from Rufinus (century IV).
So, Rafael, I believe that Rufinus felt that Origen could be rehabilitated with a little sanitizing of statements "added" by heretics. He used Latin because few in his circles and time still read Greek.
The charges of heresy against Origen had more to do with his belief that all souls would one day, with recycling of souls to new lives, be saved, with life in the world acting as a refining fire. Chances are that "forgive them for they do not know what they do" would not be something Rufinus might feel the need to alter.
DCH
Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?
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Justin Martyr citing luke 23.34?
Well I was looking at the critical apparatus of UBS3 and I saw in the apparatus that Justin Martyr quoted the prayer of Jesus on the Cross or made allusion to the prayer Father, forgive them, for they know what they do Someone can find this quote from Justin and send me here no post I really need it. I'm grateful for the help.
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Re: Justin Martyr citing luke 23.34?
I do not have my own UBS handy right this minute, but in LaParola it is not Justin but rather pseudo-Justin, who probably wrote around 400, if not later. With a bit of poking about I have been able to determine that the work in question is Quaestiones et Responsiones ad Orthodoxos, specifically Question 108:Rafael silva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:53 am Well I was looking at the critical apparatus of UBS3 and I saw in the apparatus that Justin Martyr quoted the prayer of Jesus on the Cross or made allusion to the prayer Father, forgive them, for they know what they do Someone can find this quote from Justin and send me here no post I really need it. I'm grateful for the help.
It is possible that one of the Jewish-Christian gospels had this verse:
History of the Passion of the Lord, folio 55 recto, concerning the words of forgiveness from the cross: Pater ignosce eis, non enim sciunt quid faciunt. et nota quod in e[v]angelio Nazareorum legitur quod ad virtuosam istam Christi oracionem VIII milia conversi sunt postea ad fidem. scilicet tria milia in die pentecostes. / "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And note that in the gospel of the Nazaraeans it is read that at this virtuous prayer of Christ eight thousand were afterward converted to the faith. There were to be sure three thousand on the day of Pentecost.
It appears that Eusebius included Luke 23.34a in his canon tables (Canon X 320).
I have found several scholars mentioning that Ephrem says that Luke 23.34a was present in the Diatessaron, but I do not have the actual quote(s) from Ephrem to hand.
Also:
Acts of Pilate 10.1a: 1a And Jesus went forth of the judgment hall and the two malefactors with him. And when they were come to the place they stripped him of his garments and girt him with a linen cloth and put a crown of thorns about his head: likewise also they hanged up the two malefactors. But Jesus said: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. And the soldiers divided his garments among them.
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Re: Justin Martyr citing luke 23.34?
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:33 amI do not have my own UBS handy right this minute, but in LaParola it is not Justin but rather pseudo-Justin, who probably wrote around 400, if not later. With a bit of poking about I have been able to determine that the work in question is Quaestiones et Responsiones ad Orthodoxos, specifically Question 108:Rafael silva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:53 am Well I was looking at the critical apparatus of UBS3 and I saw in the apparatus that Justin Martyr quoted the prayer of Jesus on the Cross or made allusion to the prayer Father, forgive them, for they know what they do Someone can find this quote from Justin and send me here no post I really need it. I'm grateful for the help.
Pseudo-Justin Question 108.png
It is possible that one of the Jewish-Christian gospels had this verse:
History of the Passion of the Lord, folio 55 recto, concerning the words of forgiveness from the cross: Pater ignosce eis, non enim sciunt quid faciunt. et nota quod in e[v]angelio Nazareorum legitur quod ad virtuosam istam Christi oracionem VIII milia conversi sunt postea ad fidem. scilicet tria milia in die pentecostes. / "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And note that in the gospel of the Nazaraeans it is read that at this virtuous prayer of Christ eight thousand were afterward converted to the faith. There were to be sure three thousand on the day of Pentecost.
It appears that Eusebius included Luke 23.34a in his canon tables (Canon X 320).
I have found several scholars mentioning that Ephrem says that Luke 23.34a was present in the Diatessaron, but I do not have the actual quote(s) from Ephrem to hand.
Also:
Acts of Pilate 10.1a: 1a And Jesus went forth of the judgment hall and the two malefactors with him. And when they were come to the place they stripped him of his garments and girt him with a linen cloth and put a crown of thorns about his head: likewise also they hanged up the two malefactors. But Jesus said: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. And the soldiers divided his garments among them.
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I would like someone to inform me about Laparola.net/grego if this site is reliable
Hi, I would like someone to tell me if the laparola / greek site is a reliable site of textual criticism, since I was analyzing lucas 23,34 and after church fathers I could not find their quotes in the works, these 2 fathers of the church are marciao and Clemente alexandria follow the print
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?
Luke 23:34 - NIV, NAB - in Archelaus Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes
and here, our Lord Jesus prayed that the Pharisees might be pardoned, when He said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."[531]
since we are talking about reliability I looked at the site and I saw that archelau quotes the verse and from what I saw archelau is the year 277 will be that this sitation is reliable
and here, our Lord Jesus prayed that the Pharisees might be pardoned, when He said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."[531]
since we are talking about reliability I looked at the site and I saw that archelau quotes the verse and from what I saw archelau is the year 277 will be that this sitation is reliable
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?
Luke 23:34 - NIV, NAB - in Gospel of Nicodemus I The Acts of Pilate
Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Father, let not this sin stand against them; for they know not what they do.[106]
I would also like to know about the reliability of the gospel of Nicodemus by I know he is from the third century if any of you can pass me something
Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Father, let not this sin stand against them; for they know not what they do.[106]
I would also like to know about the reliability of the gospel of Nicodemus by I know he is from the third century if any of you can pass me something
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?
s the quotation from Hippolytus about luke 23,34 in Greek? will it be that she survived in Greek the quotation from hypolitoRafael silva wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:40 pms the quotation from Hippolytus about luke 23,34 in Greek? will it be that she survived in Greek the quotation from hypolitoBen C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pmOrigen mentions it in his Homilies on Leviticus: https://archive.org/details/werke06orig/page/290 (top of page 290, four lines down: Pater, remitte illis; non enim sciunt quid faciunt).Rafael silva wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 pm Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
Hippolytus is mentioned in Biblindex as referring to this verse in a rather obscure work called the Benedictions of Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, but I do not have access to this work, so I have no idea whether it is the right half of Luke 23.34 that is being referenced.
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?
More information.Rafael silva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:41 pms the quotation from Hippolytus about luke 23,34 in Greek? will it be that she survived in Greek the quotation from hypolitoRafael silva wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:40 pms the quotation from Hippolytus about luke 23,34 in Greek? will it be that she survived in Greek the quotation from hypolitoBen C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pmOrigen mentions it in his Homilies on Leviticus: https://archive.org/details/werke06orig/page/290 (top of page 290, four lines down: Pater, remitte illis; non enim sciunt quid faciunt).Rafael silva wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 pm Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
Hippolytus is mentioned in Biblindex as referring to this verse in a rather obscure work called the Benedictions of Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, but I do not have access to this work, so I have no idea whether it is the right half of Luke 23.34 that is being referenced.
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Re: I would like someone to inform me about Laparola.net/grego if this site is reliable
Good question. I'm not sure, has anyone else checked out laparola before?Rafael silva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:19 am Hi, I would like someone to tell me if the laparola / greek site is a reliable site of textual criticism, since I was analyzing lucas 23,34 and after church fathers I could not find their quotes in the works, these 2 fathers of the church are marciao and Clemente alexandria follow the print
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown