The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
klewis
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:00 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:26 pm
klewis,
Are you avoiding my arguments about the initial Revelation being strictly a Jewish text, with no Jesus in it?

I want to point some errors and unevidenced extrapolations of yours in your book.

From what you wrote here,https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P0AGZa ... kLYsJ/view
420 years that the second temple was in service: that would bring to 516 - 420= 96 BCE
Traditional rabbinic literature states that the Second Temple stood for 420 years and based on the 2nd-century work Seder Olam Rabbah, placed construction in 350 BCE (3408 AM)".
However, Seder Olam Rabbat wrote about that well after Revelation was completed.
And you equate 1260 days to 1260 years based on Ezekiel 4:6. But next you take 1260 days as just that for the duration of the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE.
BTW, the siege of Jerusalem lasted 4.5 months not 3.5 years.
And how do you surmise the woman taken in the wilderness represents Jerusalem/Israel?

Something else I found from https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rqFg-s ... oLqkf/view:
Where did you see in the one thousand years kingdom of Christ passage in Revelation that Jerusalem will be prosperous? Certainly not in Isaiah 29:1. In Revelation, the saints are in a camp, the beloved city.
And from https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WpWPIk ... sqTHo/view
And why do you interpret the harlot in Rev. 17:5 as Jerusalem instead of Rome (Goddess Roma).

You wrote:
The city where they crucified our Lord (Rev 11:8)
The two prophets (Jesus and Zerubbabel) in Zechariah 4 is depicted as Jesus. They died, 3.5 days they were raised and take to heaven. As a result the kingdom of the world became the kingdom of God (Rev 11:15). Sounds like Jesus to me.
Who died are two unnamed prophets and not Jesus (according to your bias).

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard,

I am well aware of Seder Olam Rabbah's text and I cited it on page 91 of my book.

The goal of the entire campaign was Jerusalem. Remember, we are looking at history from our perspective and not theirs. If you were writing it from as someone in Rome you would think that the entire war was to defeat Jerusalem.

Were you aware of the chiasmus built from chapters 2 to 4 of Zechariah in Revelation 11 & 12?

The thousand years you will not see, because what I showed is only the first draft that included Isaiah 29. Things came into it draft by draft, so you cannot look at the first draft of Gone with the Wind and ask why is this not in it? Remember, I have 5 logical drafts of Revelation, for example, this is the post I did for how the Mighty Angel and the Scroll got into the book of Revelation: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5035&start=20#p97802. That will show you a snapshot of my work, how things got moved around and how things got added. You can imagine the enormity of the work when I go through that level of detail on every section in Revelation.

I want to know, is your work absolute proof, or is it a hypothesis?

Bernard Muller
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:47 pm

I am well aware of Seder Olam Rabbah's text and I cited it on page 91 of my book.
I am certain you were aware of him. But did you know when he wrote his text? I wonder. Anyway you took the 420 years from him which does make any sense considering that would put the second temple in service only up to 96 BCE.
The goal of the entire campaign was Jerusalem. Remember, we are looking at history from our perspective and not theirs. If you were writing it from as someone in Rome you would think that the entire war was to defeat Jerusalem.
The war might have lasted 3.5 years, but the siege of Jerusalem was only for 4.5 months. There is no escape for that. You are wrong for a siege of Jerusalem during 3.5 years
Were you aware of the chiasmus built from chapters 2 to 4 of Zechariah in Revelation 11 & 12?
Does that matter? John did not say what he wrote was according to Zechariah. John chose and picked and modified from the OT texts (or simply was inspired by them) what he thought was appropriate for his Revelation.
The thousand years you will not see, because what I showed is only the first draft that included Isaiah 29. Things came into it draft by draft, so you cannot look at the first draft of Gone with the Wind and ask why is this not in it? Remember, I have 5 logical drafts of Revelation, for example, this is the post I did for how the Mighty Angel and the Scroll got into the book of Revelation: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5035&start=20#p97802. That will show you a snapshot of my work, how things got moved around and how things got added. You can imagine the enormity of the work when I go through that level of detail on every section in Revelation.
That's very complicated. If it takes so much verbiose to explain your theory (5 drafts, things being combined, or moved or added, your perceived chiasmus) that raises red flags to me which say, that despite all your effort, you are likely on the wrong tracks.

And you are not answering all my questions.
And most of my posts starting here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4499&p=97663&hilit=bernard#p97663
I want to know, is your work absolute proof, or is it a hypothesis?
I am certain of it. And during my reconstruction, I found out I have backing from:

- "the main [part of the] apocalypse [of John] actually belongs to Jewish apocalyptic literature." (Jewish Encyclopedia)

- "... German scholar Vischer .. holds the Apocalypse to have been originally a purely Jewish composition and to have been changed into a Christian work by the insertion of those sections that deal with Christian subjects ... we think, it cannot be objected to ... The Apocalypse abounds in passages which bear no specific Christian character but, on the contrary, show a decidedly Jewish complexion." (Catholic Encyclopedia)

Complete quotes here, in front of that web pagehttp://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html

I also got backing from my readers:

* "I think the thrust of your reconstruction of both Jesus & the book of Revelation is on target"

* "Your web page is very informative! The reading of Revelation without the Christian additions is suddenly very clear. My dad and I are very excited by your research"

* "Daniel and Revelation: Really enjoyed reading your material. ... Thank you again, for the clear scholarly presentation. So many times I truthfully have no idea what the authors are attempting to say. My humbly opinion being "they" use words that they themselves understand to be quoted as if.... From the tower or perhaps from God or at least a demigod.... The goal of educating not only clergy but all who may seek wisdom. ... You are accomplishing on your Internet pages."

* "Just wanted to thank you for your work. I've been trying to make sense of Revelation for years and never did know where to start. You have single handedly cleared it up for me. Fascinating research."

* "Reading your site was so helpful and positive/constructive. You put a LOT more hours and research into it than our former leader did! Those guys make it sound like the "antichrist" is their uncle or something and we'll all get embedded with "666". Thanks for unraveling this stuff."

* "... I also applaud your remarks concerning Revelation and the book of Daniel, ..."

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

klewis
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:59 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:47 pm
I am well aware of Seder Olam Rabbah's text and I cited it on page 91 of my book.

And you are not answering all my questions.
I want to know, is your work absolute proof, or is it a hypothesis?
I am certain of it. And during my reconstruction, I found out I have backing from:

I absolutely see no reason to correspond to you. There can be no discussion because your work is proof and any other idea differs cannot be.

I will not answer all of your questions, and why should I. No matter how I respond, your response will be negative. I have a life to live, and answering your questions is not part of it. I have responded to many other questions by many other people, and I may disagree, but at least there is an element of exchange of ideas. See none of that in any of our conversations so far.

Bernard Muller
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:17 pm

to klewis,
I asked questions on what you wrote. So I would expect some answers. I certainly answered most of yours.
And about my arguments for an original all Jewish Revelation, I got almost no comments and/or rebuttals on the points in my favor.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

nightshadetwine
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:35 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:19 am

klewis wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:08 pm
The book of Revelation has as its foundations the Hebrew Scriptures. The difference is that Revelation quotes the Hebrew Scriptures using Hebrew Poetry or what I call Parallel Formation. For example, Revelation chapter 4 forms a chiasmus with Ezekiel chapter 1. Likewise Revelation 17 forms a simple parallel with Ezekiel 16:10-36.

The solar imagery is derived from Ezekiel and Isaiah.
I agree that the book of Revelation is directly influenced by Hebrew scriptures. This thread was started to show that a lot of these concepts found in Hebrew and Christian apocalyptic literature are found in earlier Egyptian texts. So it's a similar story being retold by a different culture. I dont know exactly how thses concepts made their way into Jewish religion.

In the Egyptian netherworld books, the sun god is baptized, transfigured, dies, resurrects, raises the dead for judgement by Osiris who sits on a throne, defeats the rebels and enemies and punishes them in a lake of fire, chains or binds the serpent, etc. These are all found in the writings of the NT. It's the same story being told by a different culture during a different time period. The main difference is that the events in Revelation happen once at the end of time on earth while the events in the Egyptian texts happen every night in the netherworld.

The Ancient Egyptian Netherworld Books, John Coleman Darnell, Colleen Manassa Darnell
The "Netherworld" of the ancient Egyptian universe possessed dual properties as a defined extent of space and length of time. In the Book of the Hidden Chamber and the Book of Gates, the Netherworld is divided into twelve units, which can be measured as a unit of distance as well as a unit of time...and like each of the twelve units within the book, each one also represents an hour of time. This hour of time is measured from the perspective of the earthly sphere, for that same unit of time can be conceived of as a "lifetime" for the Netherworld denizens...Several scenes within the Netherworld Books describe the destruction and accompanying re-creation of time. The interaction of space and time in the Netherworld Books ultimately leads to the re-creation of the cosmos each night. As the sun descends into the depth of the Nun-waters and visits his Osirian corpse, time itself is renewed, enabling the resurrection of the dead king and indeed all blessed dead...

Hours 9-10 are watery realms, and the chaotic waters of Nun intrude into the lowest register of Hour 10, in which float the drowned yet blessed dead...

The punishment of enemies becomes one of the chief themes of Hour 11 of the Book of the Hidden Chamber, and an appropriate landscape of fiery pits appears in the lowest register...

This corresponds to the concept of creation from de(con)struction that finds such emphasis in the book of Caverns- the "atomizing" of the self results in a recreation of the blessed dead but leaves the several portions of the dismembered damned to cook in the fires of the Netherworldy deities...

One of the few consistent topographical themes of the Netherworld Books does appear within Hour 2 of the Book of Gates, as it does throughout the Book of Caverns: the punishment of the damned is executed in the lowest register of the hour, in the bowels of each division of the night...

The Lake of Fire in Hour 3 of the Book of Gates (Scene 10) has an interesting dual nature: it provides refreshing water for the blessed dead, but a
blasting flame against the damned... The stench- decomposition- indicates that the dual nature of the water ultimarely evokes the dual workings of deconstruction, both the regeneration of the blessed dead and the destruction of the damned...

Following Hour 5 is an interior space, the Judgement Hall of Osiris...

Just as enemies of the sun god burn within the Temple of the Benben in Scene 38, the lower register of Hour 6 expands upon the punishment of the damned with a "flaming pit" guarded by a fire-spitting uraeus...

Hour 7 places the destruction of the enemies in the middle register...

In the final three hours of the Book of Gates, Re approaches the eastern horizon of heaven as he repeatedly battles the chaos serpent Apep...

The lower register of the Netherworldy caverns are identified particularly closely with Htmy.t, "Place of Destruction," in which the damned are not
simply annihilated, but deconstructed.

klewis
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:41 am

nightshadetwine wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:19 am
klewis wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:08 pm
The book of Revelation has as its foundations the Hebrew Scriptures. The difference is that Revelation quotes the Hebrew Scriptures using Hebrew Poetry or what I call Parallel Formation. For example, Revelation chapter 4 forms a chiasmus with Ezekiel chapter 1. Likewise Revelation 17 forms a simple parallel with Ezekiel 16:10-36.

The solar imagery is derived from Ezekiel and Isaiah.
I agree that the book of Revelation is directly influenced by Hebrew scriptures. This thread was started to show that a lot of these concepts found in Hebrew and Christian apocalyptic literature are found in earlier Egyptian texts. So it's a similar story being retold by a different culture. I dont know exactly how thses concepts made their way into Jewish religion.

In the Egyptian netherworld books, the sun god is baptized, transfigured, dies, resurrects, raises the dead for judgement by Osiris who sits on a throne, defeats the rebels and enemies and punishes them in a lake of fire, chains or binds the serpent, etc. These are all found in the writings of the NT. It's the same story being told by a different culture during a different time period. The main difference is that the events in Revelation happen once at the end of time on earth while the events in the Egyptian texts happen every night in the netherworld.

The Ancient Egyptian Netherworld Books, John Coleman Darnell, Colleen Manassa Darnell
The "Netherworld" of the ancient Egyptian universe possessed dual properties as a defined extent of space and length of time. In the Book of the Hidden Chamber and the Book of Gates, the Netherworld is divided into twelve units, which can be measured as a unit of distance as well as a unit of time...and like each of the twelve units within the book, each one also represents an hour of time. This hour of time is measured from the perspective of the earthly sphere, for that same unit of time can be conceived of as a "lifetime" for the Netherworld denizens...Several scenes within the Netherworld Books describe the destruction and accompanying re-creation of time. The interaction of space and time in the Netherworld Books ultimately leads to the re-creation of the cosmos each night. As the sun descends into the depth of the Nun-waters and visits his Osirian corpse, time itself is renewed, enabling the resurrection of the dead king and indeed all blessed dead...

Hours 9-10 are watery realms, and the chaotic waters of Nun intrude into the lowest register of Hour 10, in which float the drowned yet blessed dead...

The punishment of enemies becomes one of the chief themes of Hour 11 of the Book of the Hidden Chamber, and an appropriate landscape of fiery pits appears in the lowest register...

This corresponds to the concept of creation from de(con)struction that finds such emphasis in the book of Caverns- the "atomizing" of the self results in a recreation of the blessed dead but leaves the several portions of the dismembered damned to cook in the fires of the Netherworldy deities...

One of the few consistent topographical themes of the Netherworld Books does appear within Hour 2 of the Book of Gates, as it does throughout the Book of Caverns: the punishment of the damned is executed in the lowest register of the hour, in the bowels of each division of the night...

The Lake of Fire in Hour 3 of the Book of Gates (Scene 10) has an interesting dual nature: it provides refreshing water for the blessed dead, but a
blasting flame against the damned... The stench- decomposition- indicates that the dual nature of the water ultimarely evokes the dual workings of deconstruction, both the regeneration of the blessed dead and the destruction of the damned...

Following Hour 5 is an interior space, the Judgement Hall of Osiris...

Just as enemies of the sun god burn within the Temple of the Benben in Scene 38, the lower register of Hour 6 expands upon the punishment of the damned with a "flaming pit" guarded by a fire-spitting uraeus...

Hour 7 places the destruction of the enemies in the middle register...

In the final three hours of the Book of Gates, Re approaches the eastern horizon of heaven as he repeatedly battles the chaos serpent Apep...

The lower register of the Netherworldy caverns are identified particularly closely with Htmy.t, "Place of Destruction," in which the damned are not
simply annihilated, but deconstructed.
I am so sorry, as you will see in my previous post, I did not want to hijack this thread. I was in the wrong and out of scope on this thread.

I think Friedman, makes a great case that the Levites were Egyptians and that would be a source of this. However, this conversation is way outside my scope of knowledge .

Again, I apologize.

nightshadetwine
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:35 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:57 am

klewis wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:41 am
[quote=nightshadetwine post_id=97925 time=1556299158 user_id=7451
I am so sorry, as you will see in my previous post, I did not want to hijack this thread. I was in the wrong and out of scope on this thread.

I think Friedman, makes a great case that the Levites were Egyptians and that would be a source of this. However, this conversation is way outside my scope of knowledge .

Again, I apologize.
No need to Apologize! Your posts are related to the subject of this thread and I've found your recent posts on this forum about Revelation interesting. I started this thread a while back anyways so I really don't mind if it's used for other discussions.

klewis
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Thu May 09, 2019 8:52 am

The way I show in my book, How John Wrote the Book of Revelation: From Concept to Publication, that Revelation was written is the same way that the vast majority of the Hebrew Scriptures were were written as well as much of the Christian Scriptures were written. One example, is how the story of Jacob was crafted (see viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5091) in Genesis. Its beginnings started with a small parallel with Moses as an adult up until he took a wife (11 verses) and how Jacob's story grew to span chapters.

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