Information Confirmation

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Jax
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by Jax »

DCHindley wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 7:27 pm Jax,

Ben is right, the case endings have nothing to do with etymology.

code
"NT Book"
"Hits"
Jesus (Case)
case
e "Joh" 205 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
e "Joh" 20 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
e "Joh" 26 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
e "Luk" 63 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
e "Luk" 18 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
e "Luk" 15 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
e "Mar" 68 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
e "Mar" 13 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
e "Mar" 11 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
e "Mat" 130 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
e "Mat" 25 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
e "Mat" 16 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "1Co" 3 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "1Co" 19 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "1Co" 2 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "1Th" 2 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "1Th" 12 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "1Th" 2 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "1Ti" 3 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "1Ti" 11 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "2Co" 2 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "2Co" 12 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "2Co" 5 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "2Th" 1 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "2Th" 11 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "2Ti" 1 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "2Ti" 12 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "2Ti" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "Col" 1 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "Col" 5 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "Col" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "Eph" 19 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "Eph" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "Gal" 1 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "Gal" 14 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "Gal" 2 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "Phi" 1 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p1 "Phi" 20 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "Phi" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "Phm" 5 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "Phm" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "Rom" 29 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p1 "Rom" 6 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
p1 "Tit" 4 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p2 "Heb" 5 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
p2 "Heb" 4 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p2 "Heb" 5 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
a "1Jo" 5 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
a "1Jo" 4 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
a "1Jo" 3 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
a "1Pe" 10 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
a "2Jo" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
a "2Jo" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
a "2Pe" 1 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
a "2Pe" 8 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
a "Act" 10 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
a "Act" 32 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
a "Act" 27 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
a "Jam" 2 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
a "Jud" 5 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
a "Jud" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
r "Rev" 1 Ιησοῦς (Nominative) n
r "Rev" 13 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g


code
Pentateuch & Old Greek
"Hits"
Joshua (Case)
case
p "Deu" 2 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) g
p "Deu" 3 Ἰησοῖ (Dative) d
p "Exo" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
p "Exo" 1 Ἰησοῖ (Dative) d
p "Num" 4 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
og "1Ch" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "1Es" 8 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "1Ki" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "2Ki" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "2Ma" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Bel" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Ezr" 4 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Hag" 2 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Hag" 2 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
og "Jda" 3 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Jda" 1 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
og "Jdg" 4 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Jos" 7 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Jos" 16 Ἰησοῖ (Dative) d
og "Jos" 29 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a
og "Neh" 12 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Ode" 1 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Zec" 3 Ιησοῦ (Genitive) g
og "Zec" 2 Ιησοῦν (Accusative) a

Please proceed to slice & dice.

DCH
First of all thanks for the lists. :cheers:

Actually, I'm more interested in how Paul uses the name Iesou/Iesous/Iesoun than the etymology of the name. But while I'm here, it has been put forward that Paul uses only the LXX as a source. If that is true then using the names Iesou/Iesous/Iesoun from the LXX should give us the corosponding Hebraic names from the Torah etc. Right? Or am I missing something super basic?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 2:22 pmBut while I'm here, it has been put forward that Paul uses only the LXX as a source. If that is true then using the names Iesou/Iesous/Iesoun from the LXX should give us the corresponding Hebraic names from the Torah etc. Right? Or am I missing something super basic?

Lane
I am not sure I understand the question....

I do want to comment on something, though:
Actually, I'm more interested in how Paul uses the name Iesou/Iesous/Iesoun than the etymology of the name.
There is no need to decline the name fully every time you list it. The name is Iēsous. The other spellings are just declensions of that name. It would be like me saying "Lane/Lane's" every time I mention you: English speakers already know that when you're possessing something in the sentence it's "Lane's," whereas "Lane" is what is used in other grammatical situations. "Lane's" is basically the English equivalent of the Greek genitive, but that's not what English speakers normally call it (we call it the possessive). (Old) English used to have different forms for the direct object, the indirect object, and the possessive — just like Greek — but modern English has lost most of those differentiated forms, with only the genitive/possessive ("Lane's") remaining as a distinct declension. The main place where the declensions remain in English is in our pronouns (I = nominative; mine = genitive; me = dative or accusative).

By way of comparison, then, to go through the epistles of Paul and count how many times Paul uses each of the declensions is basically the same as asking the question: how many times does Paul use this noun as a subject, as a possessive, as an indirect object, or as a direct object? It is like counting how many times a person uses "Lane's" as opposed to "Lane." Under normal circumstances, no personal preference for one form over another comes into play; the grammatical function of the noun in the sentence dictates its form.

But what did you mean above by the use of the name Iēsous from the LXX giving us the corresponding Hebraic names from the Torah? I am not following.
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DCHindley
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by DCHindley »

Jax wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 2:22 pm ... I'm more interested in how Paul uses the name Iesou/Iesous/Iesoun than the etymology of the name. But while I'm here, it has been put forward that Paul uses only the LXX as a source. If that is true then using the names Iesou/Iesous/Iesoun from the LXX should give us the corosponding Hebraic names from the Torah etc. Right? Or am I missing something super basic?
So, you want to know if the Lxx/Old Greek preserves a better rendering of the underlying Hebrew name rendered into English as "Joshua" in the RSV?

If so, the answer is yes, but as it would be transliterated into Greek in the times when the books of Judean scripture were being translated (mid 3rd century BCE for the Pentatauch to 1st Century BCE or even 1st century CE for the two Greek translations of Daniel. The "essential" transliteration that would capture the word as spoken in Hebrew would be the nominative case.

The exact transliteration used at any one point in time will depend on conventions of pronunciation used in both Hebrew and Greek at the place where the translation was made. Some Greek transliterations were simplified to facilitate the pronunciation in Greek of words for which there had previously been no analogue.

Normally a noun would have Nominative case, Genitive case, Dative case and Accusative case forms (a set each for singular and plural use). Some personal names seem to defy normal declension rules. A few names had both a declined and undeclined forms.

Since there is just one Joshua or Jesus, the Hebrew name "Joshua" or "Jehoshua" (even Hebrew can write the same name in different ways, depending on how one wants to interpret vowel points that were added in the middle ages) can be declined as Ιησοῦς (Nominative, used for Joshua/Jesus as subjects of a sentence), Ιησοῦ (Genitive, of/from Joshua/Jesus), Ἰησοῖ (Dative, in/to/by or by means of Joshua/Jesus), and Ιησοῦν (Accusative, used for Joshua/Jesus as object of sentence).

You will notice though that the dative form occurs only in three books, in Lxx Exodus, Deuteronomy & Joshua. By far the majority of use was of the Genitive case form. Most things said about Joshua or Jesus either belongs to, or comes from, them.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Sat May 04, 2019 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 11:28 pmYou will notice though that the dative form occurs only once, in Lxx Deuteronomy. By far the majority of use was of the Genitive case form. Most things said about Joshua or Jesus either belongs to, or comes from, them.
The dative form occurs in the book of Joshua, too, as your table suggests.
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DCHindley
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 5:30 am
DCHindley wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 11:28 pmYou will notice though that the dative form occurs only once, in Lxx Deuteronomy. By far the majority of use was of the Genitive case form. Most things said about Joshua or Jesus either belongs to, or comes from, them.
The dative form occurs in the book of Joshua, too, as your table suggests.
Yes, so also Exodus. :goodmorning:

DCH
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:02 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 5:30 am
DCHindley wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 11:28 pmYou will notice though that the dative form occurs only once, in Lxx Deuteronomy. By far the majority of use was of the Genitive case form. Most things said about Joshua or Jesus either belongs to, or comes from, them.
The dative form occurs in the book of Joshua, too, as your table suggests.
Yes, so also Exodus. :goodmorning:

DCH
It should also be pointed out that some of the forms you have labeled as "genitive" are actually datives in the text. They are of the later form of the declension whereby Ἰησοῦ covers both the genitive and the dative (as in the NT). An example is Nehemiah 11.26, καὶ ἐν Ἰησοῦ, in which Ἰησοῦ is obviously the dative after ἐν.
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Jax
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by Jax »

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I really appreciate your patience and support. It really must seem like you are trying to instruct Charley Gordon in punctuation before his operashun (and often I feel like him, looking out of the dimness, sure that if only I can learn to read that I will become smart).

So anyway. Just to be clear. Iesous is the name. And it is the transliteration of Yeshua which is the shortened form of Yeheshua which is Hebrew for "YHVH is salvation".

Right?

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DCHindley
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:53 am
DCHindley wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:02 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 5:30 am
DCHindley wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 11:28 pmYou will notice though that the dative form occurs only once, in Lxx Deuteronomy. By far the majority of use was of the Genitive case form. Most things said about Joshua or Jesus either belongs to, or comes from, them.
The dative form occurs in the book of Joshua, too, as your table suggests.
Yes, so also Exodus. :goodmorning:

DCH
It should also be pointed out that some of the forms you have labeled as "genitive" are actually datives in the text. They are of the later form of the declension whereby Ἰησοῦ covers both the genitive and the dative (as in the NT). An example is Nehemiah 11.26, καὶ ἐν Ἰησοῦ, in which Ἰησοῦ is obviously the dative after ἐν.
Ahh. Neh 11:26 does have Ihsou and Bibleworks tagged it as a dative. I did not do a formal search from the command line for genitives and datives, just the simple form searches. See how well that worked for me? :tomato: Being in govmint work we do know how to pound a square peg into a round hole. :notworthy:

DCH
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 8:48 amSo anyway. Just to be clear. Iesous is the name. And it is the transliteration of Yeshua which is the shortened form of Yeheshua which is Hebrew for "YHVH is salvation".
Make it Yehoshua, and that is correct. :cheers:
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Re: Information Confirmation

Post by Secret Alias »

But remember that none of the Christian MSS actually spell out IESOUS in all its forms. A nomen sacrum appears instead
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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